Is there a gay dating hierarchy? Where do I fit?

[lostinspace94]

I'm in my mid 30's, British, mixed race and fit the typical "gay jock" profile (handsome looking, gym fit / muscled, above average cock etc) with the exception that I'm not white. For a visual: I am a little more 'caramel' in my skin shade, but similar look to Rogan Richards - who I spoke to about this topic and and who said I'm hot (based off my pic), should fuck around and someone will stick. I don't do porn/OF etc, always been focused on my career (which I love) and have progressed well/earn very well so can afford the 'muscle' lifestyle comfortably, and am generally independent (I travel myself, etc). My life has been really good overall so far.

However, I've been single since I've been out for ~10 years now and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what is going on for me. I've not even had a FWB situation or short term dating. It has been rather disappointing to be completely honest. Everyone says I'm a catch and yet I am nowhere near being caught. I have had a tonne of hookups over the years though, almost all have been one off, and in cases where there was something more there was always a problem e.g. he was visiting, he was already taken, too much time lag etc.

I've done all the logical steps: therapy (they have no idea, I've also done all the tests and don't have any medical / mental issues), dating coaches to improve my profile (they are confused because I get a tonne of matches, but no one will physically meet me outside of having sex), attending circuit parties / clubs (I get hit on in the party by several guys, but there isn't much effort beyond that after the party to engage with me, unless they are already coupled), etc but nothing has panned out for me yet. I also stopped hooking up entirely, but didn't land a single date in 6+ months, so basically ended up just getting no action or date lol.

Eventually, my friend said I was better off moving to the US, as people of colour do better there in his experience. I will say when I moved here, the attention I got in parties etc was completely different to my experience in the UK (it is much better in the US), but I feel like now that I'm in my 30s I'm still not attracting the "right" guy (someone single lol). It was also a struggle to connect with the gay community in the UK, making gay friends in the US has been a bit easier, but still nowhere near what I thought it would be like. I still very "outside" the scene I "should" fit into.

I spoke to a few more therapists who said there is unfortunately a gay hierarchy in dating. White at the top, then white passing (e.g. latinos), black, east asian and then south asian. Because of my mix/heritage, I fall towards the bottom of the pile. However, for sex, I am high up in the pile because I'm "exotic" looking. This seems to match my experience as I always get the hookup - with the hottest of the hottest guy on apps etc - but they will never want to know me beyond that - as their fantasy is fulfilled. I think it has more to do with them being unable to "visualise me" in their life (as probably they expect a Drago from Game of Thrones, and I turn out to be a good guy actually) rather than "racism" but I honestly have no idea how to break this perception.

I feel like nothing is 'wrong' with me but perhaps I just am not well-positioned to find someone who will accept me for who I am. I love living in the US, and my career means I can find a high paying job in almost any state. I really want to experience a more intimate connection with someone. I have no racial prejudices as I find hot guys of every race, but naturally in cities where are a lot more white and white adjacent to others so perhaps things get skewed for me. I would say that where things have gone a little further, its always been a white guy, because I reckon the other people of colour are chasing a white guy?

I don't know anymore how to "better" myself for a chance at something more. If I get a better understanding of how things work and where I fit in, I am sure I will be able to navigate this better, but at the moment I'm completely lost.

 

[pluscachange]

This seems to match my experience as I always get the hookup - with the hottest of the hottest guy on apps etc - but they will never want to know me beyond that - as their fantasy is fulfilled.

You're settling for hookups with the hopes of it becoming something more. That's on you. You don't go buy a can of Spam expecting it to turn out to be steak.

I think it has more to do with them being unable to "visualise me" in their life (as probably they expect a Drago from Game of Thrones, and I turn out to be a good guy actually) rather than "racism" but I honestly have no idea how to break this perception.

That's on them. It's not realistically within your power to change the perceptions of others, particularly when they have neither the wish nor the inclination to change them.

I don't know anymore how to "better" myself for a chance at something more. If I get a better understanding of how things work and where I fit in, I am sure I will be able to navigate this better, but at the moment I'm completely lost.

I'm not sure anyone can advise you beyond what you've already been told. It's not about bettering yourself. You're probably a very decent guy as it is. Many of the guys you go out with probably are not. Or at the least, they aren't looking for the same things you are. Don't attempt to fit in because it's not worth it. You'll only be pretending to be something you are not. Try meeting people who are open to accepting others for who and how they are rather than going after those you feel you have to conform to what they want.

The gay dating hierarchy you described is fairly accurate, but that doesn't meant you have to play the game. Many gay men refuse to abide by it and still find long-term partners.

 

[lostinspace94]

Thanks for the reply @pluscachange!

I completely agree that settling for hookups and expecting it to lead to more is my own problem, hence I stopped hooking up. I also agree that I can't change people's perception, not do I want to.

I know I am a decent guy, and would be a good boyfriend/partner, so rather than "fit in" I'm just trying to figure out how to set myself up to find something "more meaningful".

Dating apps land me matches but not real dates, so I'm in a bit of a catch 22 situation so to speak. Joining sports leagues has also only resulted in fetishisation and no real connections. I stuck on how to find guys who would be open / interested in "me" (beyond sex) as i've not found this thus far. Any ideas are welcome.

 

[Group51]

I just looked up Rogan Richard’s and if you look like him, I would have thought you’re near the top Of the hierarchy. I guess you can tell if when you open a dating app, hot guys you like are waiting for you.

I get ghosts and older guys mainly…

 

[ILoveGames48]

Thanks for the reply @pluscachange!

I completely agree that settling for hookups and expecting it to lead to more is my own problem, hence I stopped hooking up. I also agree that I can't change people's perception, not do I want to.

I know I am a decent guy, and would be a good boyfriend/partner, so rather than "fit in" I'm just trying to figure out how to set myself up to find something "more meaningful".

Dating apps land me matches but not real dates, so I'm in a bit of a catch 22 situation so to speak. Joining sports leagues has also only resulted in fetishisation and no real connections. I stuck on how to find guys who would be open / interested in "me" (beyond sex) as i've not found this thus far. Any ideas are welcome.

You may go for just hook ups and expect something to come out of it.. but that’s not a bad thing… I’ve seen and heard of guys going out for a hookup.. either to find a guy or a girl to hook up with and have fun with.. and turn out dating and getting married..

A friend of my moms met a guy at a bar for a hookup 20 years ago and they been together since..

You never know when love will come into your life..

I’m not saying keep on doing hookups with just anyone.. but maybe one that maybe will say they do hook ups until their mr right comes in to their lives

 

[chadsbcb]

I'm not a muscular hung or exotic (at least in my country) but I get the same experience, I can have sex with attractive people easily but I never get anything after, I've never had a romantic relation and I've tried but people after sex ignore me, and when I try to not have sex at first they ignore me for not having sex at first, so I never know what to do because sometimes I think "hey at least if he'd gonna ignore you at least suck his dick"

 

[ILoveGames48]

If what you want is more than sex then going out on first date don’t expect sex to happen.. let it be known you are seeking a relationship not a quick suck n fuck..

 

[lostinspace94]

The gay hierarchy you mentioned is correct: Whites at the top, then white-passing Latinos/Arabs/Mediterranean men, then Blacks, and Asians at the bottom (with east, south-east, south interchangeable depending on the guy's fetish). Mixed guys fall wherever depending on how white-passing they are.

If you look like Rogan Richards, then you hardly look that mixed. He's white-passing enough that you should have no problem meeting guys. If you're fit, handsome, and find it easy to initially hook up, but find it difficult to extend that into a meaningful relationship then you have to look deeply into yourself and accept that maybe it's your personality. You must be putting these people off somehow and it's definitely not your looks.

Or you probably only pursue really hot 10/10 white guys. These guys have the pick of the litter and have so many prospects, and if you're not white too, you really have to stand out. Have you tried dating black guys or asians? You might have more success. You mentioned it's only progressed far with white guys, but there are plenty of POCs who would be into you. You just have to be conscious of how you keep going for white guys.

Another point is that you keep looking for guys in circuit parties and the gay scenes. Most guys who are in that scene are not looking for a relationship. If you think you're outside the "scene" you think you "should" fit into, then that's the problem. Don't force yourself and try to meet guys outside the scene.

Because it's not about fulfilling an exotice checkmark for most guys. If they fuck with you, they already have the attraction. It's just a matter of developing that into a deeper relationship, which either involves you being more interesting/relatable or seeking out guys outside the top of the hierarchy and clubbing scene who are less likely concerned about hooking up only.

Just to clarify, I was comparing my skin tone / shade to Rogan, not my features (though I am muscled, not as much as him). But I know him and he claimed I was "hot" so I guess I will take his word for it lol. Though, I'm not sure how "white-passing" I am because I never really looked at things in this way. As you described, I am fit, am told I'm handsome looking, and therefore people are generally surprised I am single and never been in anything "more".

There have been a variety of reasons why something has not gotten to a relationship. I've mostly lived in cities, where men are very transient, so its not like there has been no interest from either side, but often we "cant" take it further e.g. they are visiting. In a small number of cases, they are taken (married, open etc) so I tend to close things out. In a lot of cases, I'm just not interested beyond the one time sex (mostly because I just can't really "see" a match after meeting them) which happens "less" when I source someone via a party etc because then I am seeing them live / vibe etc vs an app where its really little to go off of. I'm guessing its mutual as I've not really had someone chase me (where I was not interested). For the ones I was actually into/followed up with (and they reciprocated), they have been white so far, but not the 10/10 circuit gays at all, more the wholesome normal types. I tend to think they are white because there is just more of them in the areas/cities I've lived in.

I don't filter on race (never have) but I would say 90%+ of guys matching me are white or white-passing. I almost never get a black or asian guy match with me (I got Tinder Premium for example to see if it was me being biased) or in the rare case they do, I am not attracted to that particular guy (and this is not a general race statement, there are plenty of white and white-passing guys I'm not attracted to either). Being completely honest, there are also a number of "10/10 white gays" who I'm not attracted to either, on IG/apps or in real life. For me its the whole person that matters, not just how they look, and thats always been the case, which is why I try to find guys in person more than on apps (as I'm still not the best at judging via an app).

I've not been ghosted / they still do reply (well, 99% of the time, theres always an exception), but it doesn't really evolve to anything. This has always been my area of confusion, which is why I sought out therapy, dating coaches etc, even just as ex-hookups for feedback, but have not had any actionable feedback over the years.

I guess based off how I look, others have told me circuit parties etc is where I should go because thats where I will fit / find my guy. But this is not the case. However, I've not found an alternative place (beyond apps) to find guys I'm actually attracted to either.

I'm left with the following questions:
a) Am I white-passing/where do I fit in the hierarchy/who should I realistically target? I could PM a pic if helpful.
b) Where do I find guys who are open to more?
c) How do I get actual feedback on what is putting guys off and/or progress things from a hookup to more?

 

[lostinspace94]

You may go for just hook ups and expect something to come out of it.. but that’s not a bad thing… I’ve seen and heard of guys going out for a hookup.. either to find a guy or a girl to hook up with and have fun with.. and turn out dating and getting married..

A friend of my moms met a guy at a bar for a hookup 20 years ago and they been together since..

You never know when love will come into your life..

I’m not saying keep on doing hookups with just anyone.. but maybe one that maybe will say they do hook ups until their mr right comes in to their lives

Yes I hear this happens a lot, hence I continued to hookup wondering when something will convert for me, but it hasn't yet.

 

[lostinspace94]

I'm not a muscular hung or exotic (at least in my country) but I get the same experience, I can have sex with attractive people easily but I never get anything after, I've never had a romantic relation and I've tried but people after sex ignore me, and when I try to not have sex at first they ignore me for not having sex at first, so I never know what to do because sometimes I think "hey at least if he'd gonna ignore you at least suck his dick"

Yup I go through the same thing. If I offer drinks etc first, they will agree, but it will never happen. If I offer sex, they will be at my door in 30 mins. This is why hookups almost always happen for me, but dating never does, and why I wrote that I assume they just see me as an exotic toy to play with.

 

[lostinspace94]

If what you want is more than sex then going out on first date don’t expect sex to happen.. let it be known you are seeking a relationship not a quick suck n fuck..

I have done this, and no one will literally date me (well, that I am even slightly attracted to).

 

[Prettyphallus89]

From what you described i think you're up there. Yes there's a hierarchy in the gay community but I will like to call it desirability hierarchy, (because if we're honest how many gays really want to date lol). Top of this hierarchy is fit, muscular and big dick. Especially if you're white. You can argue that black guys who tick these boxes comes close but its mostly fetishization. As a black guy I've noticed we're not exactly desired, most non blacks move to us because they want to fulfill their BBC Fantasy/fetish.

 

[deleted26602421]

An attractive POC is still more desired than an unattractive white guy, but when it comes down to ethnicity, it's all a game of preferences really, there are plenty of guys who aren't into white guys at all for instance.. Moreover, I think people are more likely to prefer dating their "own" ethnicity, but there are many interracial couples too so anything is possible.

 

[lostinspace94]

An attractive POC is still more desired than an unattractive white guy, but when it comes down to ethnicity, it's all a game of preferences really, there are plenty of guys who aren't into white guys at all for instance.. Moreover, I think people are more likely to prefer dating their "own" ethnicity, but there are many interracial couples too so anything is possible.

Yup I have never been disillusioned that I am for everyone. I know white guys who also struggle because some guys want tall guys, muscled guys, guys with a bigger cock, guys with a bigger ass, guys with more money etc. Its not all about color here and I don't think this at all.

I guess where I am confused is, given the attributes I bring to the table, what can I get, given I seem largely unsuccessful in dating (as in getting dates, matches are fine) but fine getting hookups. If I can figure who would want me, I can focus a bit, and target that kind of guy.

 

[exposits22]

Hi, I think my experience can help you since I'm on the other side of the spectrum. I am not looking for a romantic partner because I haven't found the financial or life stability to even know where I am going to settle. And I try to be clear about it whenever I meet someone. However, many people get interested in me "for more", despite me telling them I'm not available for that. It can be someone I meet on a dating app, at a club or even after a hookup.

I think the key is relatability. I am generally considered attractive, but not a spotlight taker. I've a pretty face and good body (mostly from eating healthy and occasional sports) but by no means I'm ripped as a model or porn actor. I get rejected a lot of times for being too skinny, young looking, etc. However, I haven't had many experiences of people not approaching me for thinking I'm unattainable/from other league. Likewise, I'm very chill and genuine when meeting people. I don't play games, I don't pretend anything, I don't talk about myself much. I listen and smile a lot. I banter. So people don't feel intimidated by me, rather find me an approachable "nice" guy.
I'd advice you to focus less on the superficial attributes (being fit, earning money, the 'muscle' lifestyle) that can make guys think you're shallow or unattainable. Focus instead on showing your personality: your dreams, the things you like, the people you care for. Even a bit of self-deprecation is cute. In the end people want another HUMAN with whom they can share their struggles.

Also, having similar interests or activities plays a big role. So, for example, if you portray a muscle physique, you're communicating that you're into gym and stuff, and you will attract similar people. However, in my experience jocks are usually more focused on the physicality/sex than in relationships. So try to expand on your other hobbies and interests that can connect with different people: videogames, geeky stuff, nature, sports, etc. You will find a world of guys who are maybe less present in social media /club scene but with bigger emotional depth.

 

[chrisrobin]

It's that hoping that each hook-up will turn out to be mister right thats wrong, it hardly works that way.
Things hap[p[en when you don't expect, an introduction at a party maybe, a friend of a friend but using apps, the gay scene, really lead to anything lasting. You quote maybe your skin tone is wrong, I don't see evidence of that being a problem in the UK, maybe you lived in the wrong place.
I enjoyed the pleasure of a guy of color for about year till he moved on. I met him in the local butchers where he was behind the counter. Just something about the way he handled the meat for me, that smile as I left made me somehow be outside at the end of business and within 10 minutes locked in an embrace (and yes, he could really handle his meat - he had a substantial joint!).
So really my advise is stop "LOOKING" and just be there.

 

[lostinspace94]

Hi, I think my experience can help you since I'm on the other side of the spectrum. I am not looking for a romantic partner because I haven't found the financial or life stability to even know where I am going to settle. And I try to be clear about it whenever I meet someone. However, many people get interested in me "for more", despite me telling them I'm not available for that. It can be someone I meet on a dating app, at a club or even after a hookup.

I think the key is relatability. I am generally considered attractive, but not a spotlight taker. I've a pretty face and good body (mostly from eating healthy and occasional sports) but by no means I'm ripped as a model or porn actor. I get rejected a lot of times for being too skinny, young looking, etc. However, I haven't had many experiences of people not approaching me for thinking I'm unattainable/from other league. Likewise, I'm very chill and genuine when meeting people. I don't play games, I don't pretend anything, I don't talk about myself much. I listen and smile a lot. I banter. So people don't feel intimidated by me, rather find me an approachable "nice" guy.
I'd advice you to focus less on the superficial attributes (being fit, earning money, the 'muscle' lifestyle) that can make guys think you're shallow or unattainable. Focus instead on showing your personality: your dreams, the things you like, the people you care for. Even a bit of self-deprecation is cute. In the end people want another HUMAN with whom they can share their struggles.

Also, having similar interests or activities plays a big role. So, for example, if you portray a muscle physique, you're communicating that you're into gym and stuff, and you will attract similar people. However, in my experience jocks are usually more focused on the physicality/sex than in relationships. So try to expand on your other hobbies and interests that can connect with different people: videogames, geeky stuff, nature, sports, etc. You will find a world of guys who are maybe less present in social media /club scene but with bigger emotional depth.

Thanks for this, and I agree. The had part about relatability is that can only be expressed if you actually have a conversation. This is why dating exists. If people don't want to even have a conversation with me, or make perceptions of me and then realise I'm a nice guy and get confused, I guess I'm pretty stuck. In almost all of the cases someone has gotten to know me, I get comments like 'you wont be single for long' or 'you will be taken within a month' (I don't ask, they just tell me this) so something isn't adding up at all.

I do have hobbies outside of circuit parties etc but never really made connections (beyond platonic friends) through those. Hence I was trying to move towards areas where I would find someone at least I was attracted to. For example, I love to travel to new places and to national parks and I am actually a geek by nature (very good academically etc), and so on. I barely use social media (infact I only made an account last year because people assume you are fake if not lol). I've always enjoyed my hobbies and life ouside of the scene and yet have not attracted someone my way.

As you said, you should "attract" who you are basically, but I don't seem to attract anything (beyond hookups). So I'm not sure I can say I attract a muscular guy despite being decently built also even if we look at things very superficially.

In terms of your example, this was raised in therapy. Often, gay men are attracted to men who are unavailable, but they themselves are not 'healthy' if that makes sense. I'm not dismissing the guys who wanted to date you, they could genuinely also have wanted a relationship and been healthy, but its just food for thought. My friends have been in a similar scenario, and when they 'gave a shot' to one of these guys, the guy didn't need to chase and 'bailed'.

 

[lostinspace94]

It's that hoping that each hook-up will turn out to be mister right thats wrong, it hardly works that way.
Things hap[p[en when you don't expect, an introduction at a party maybe, a friend of a friend but using apps, the gay scene, really lead to anything lasting. You quote maybe your skin tone is wrong, I don't see evidence of that being a problem in the UK, maybe you lived in the wrong place.
I enjoyed the pleasure of a guy of color for about year till he moved on. I met him in the local butchers where he was behind the counter. Just something about the way he handled the meat for me, that smile as I left made me somehow be outside at the end of business and within 10 minutes locked in an embrace (and yes, he could really handle his meat - he had a substantial joint!).
So really my advise is stop "LOOKING" and just be there.

I fundamentally disagree with the "stop looking" idea. 80%+ of gays I know were actively looking for dates etc and then found their partner. No one falls into your lap tbh, this is a myth. Sure, they may not have "chased" that "particular" person, but they were open to more, which is the state I'm in. When I'm reflecting on my own experiences I am curious why more hasn't happened for me.

I lived in London, and found it quite a racist city in general.

 

[lostinspace94]

Let’s keep it real, u might have a greater preference for white guys/ non black guys and that might be the reason why ure still single cause unfortunately as u said people tend to date those who look like them, and with u being mixed and muscular ure only seen as “good for fun” cause u seem exotic. And I know u claim to be “into all guys” but if ur dating pattern as u said has been majority white guys then there might be an implicit bias u still hold that’s causes u to rule out what would have been viable black male options and that’s something u need to unpack.

Cause I know as there is a gay hierarchy, there is also a hierarchy that exists in each racial/ethnic sub group; as a Middle Eastern man I know where I stand in my subgroup. And I would guess with white guys, blondes with blue eyes would be at the top of their sub racial hierarchy as they seem to be mostly desired. And I know from discussions with my black friends, u being mixed/light skinned places you on top of the pecking order among the Black sub group (due to just colorism and other issues). Couple that with ur skin tone, ur looks and muscles as u say, ure definitely higher ranked in the black sub group. So if u truly are into “all people” as u say, u definitely should have found urself an attractive viable black person for a relationship as ure pretty much highly desirable in ur sub group and what majority black people would go for.

I think truth of the matter is, even though u say are “into all people”, deep down u do prefer whites/ white passing. Like I’m sure if u met a genie and was asked to take a deep breath and imagine and wish for ur perfect future partner, race, stats and all, they’d be white . Which btw IS FINE! there’s nothing wrong with it ure entitled to ur preferences, but in order to move forward u need to be more honest with urself and ur preferences.

Ill tell u this tho, I doubt there’s anything wrong with u personality wise, but when you’re looking at out groups for a partner the search will be difficult because naturally people tend to gravitate towards people who look like them. Being Arabic myself, I’m sexually attracted to and have slept with guys of most races, however 4 of my 5 relationships have been with other Arabic men. cause I subconsciously see them as “in group” members and we have more in common. I’m sure same goes for other races. So the advice I’d give you is to first be truly honest with urself, recognize and acknowledge ur preferences and difficulty it might bring when it comes to finding a partner, and on dating apps explicitly state that ure looking for a relationship, and keep ur head up.

So my mix is not black btw (hence my comment about Rogan Richards since he is also not black). My skin is probably closer to Boomer Banks for example.

I don't think we can say there is a dating pattern because I've barely landed any dates. The hookups, if they count as dates, also have not led anywhere. I was only referencing the ones that did go a bit further because *they chased me* and they happen to be white. The sample size is small though.

I was raised in London, and my friend group growing up was very mixed (white, black, asian etc) so the colour has never really been a bias for me. I think its more numbers. Say from 100 men, on apps, 70 are white or white passing, 10 are black, 10 are asian, 10 are other. So just by the law of numbers, if say 20% are attractive in general, more white / white-passing people will come through. The reverse is true too. There are plenty of unattractive white guys I reject. So the color of someone itself doesn't qualify them for anything. I would say, I am actually rejected a lot more by black people (even on Tinder premium, I checked to see if I was missing guys by accident, and barely matched with a black person from their side) idk why.

If people date people who look like them, then I am pretty screwed, because I almost never come across someone who looks like me on an app or otherwise. So I'm left to my own devices to find someone I like. That said, when I do find a mixed guy (very rare) on apps or otherwise, I actually chase him much more than I do a white person. Still no luck though.

 

[Milad Gunstone]

So my mix is not black btw (hence my comment about Rogan Richards since he is also not black). My skin is probably closer to Boomer Banks for example.

I don't think we can say there is a dating pattern because I've barely landed any dates. The hookups, if they count as dates, also have not led anywhere. I was only referencing the ones that did go a bit further because *they chased me* and they happen to be white. The sample size is small though.

I was raised in London, and my friend group growing up was very mixed (white, black, asian etc) so the colour has never really been a bias for me. I think its more numbers. Say from 100 men, on apps, 70 are white or white passing, 10 are black, 10 are asian, 10 are other. So just by the law of numbers, if say 20% are attractive in general, more white / white-passing people will come through. The reverse is true too. There are plenty of unattractive white guys I reject. So the color of someone itself doesn't qualify them for anything. I would say, I am actually rejected a lot more by black people (even on Tinder premium, I checked to see if I was missing guys by accident, and barely matched with a black person from their side) idk why.

If people date people who look like them, then I am pretty screwed, because I almost never come across someone who looks like me on an app or otherwise. So I'm left to my own devices to find someone I like. That said, when I do find a mixed guy (very rare) on apps or otherwise, I actually chase him much more than I do a white person. Still no luck though.

my bad, when u said mixed my mind automatically went to mixed with black that’s why it made me really wonder, apologies. Thanks for the clarification.