Lol... kind of makes you wonder who's the Dai Li, and who's Azula in this situation...
Lack of diversity in LGBTQ+ tv shows and how it has an effect in the real world
- Thread starter Jhughes1995
- Start date
I'm not familiar with the reference so it is lost on me but I'm glad you "get it."
heinz.friedrich
Expert Member
If you need representation, you are already a little bit negative and biased.
Movies or politics should not have the task to unbias people. I also doubt that they can do it.
They rather divide than unify, because they dont understand what causes the bias according to how they behave.
If you identify with an identity like a sports club, you become biased towards this sport club. The solution is that you promote identitylessness. If you dont identify with a sports club you can be neutral and unbiased towards different sport clubs. That is not possible with identifying and promoting identity politics.
Identity politics leads to bias. They (media and politics) often think it decreases bias. That is how little they know about reality.
That is why you need a good spiritual teaching that loves and respects everyone. That has the task to unbias you. At the end, you have no identity and therefore you can identify with everyone.
If you see something as a sin in a spiritual denomination (like homosexuality), but you love the sinner that could also work, too. You become unbiased towards the sinner, because you love and respect that person.
If the negativity is based on the religion it is hard to do anything. You have to explain that hate is negative and that is why the religion is false or so.
Movies or politics should not have the task to unbias people. I also doubt that they can do it.
They rather divide than unify, because they dont understand what causes the bias according to how they behave.
If you identify with an identity like a sports club, you become biased towards this sport club. The solution is that you promote identitylessness. If you dont identify with a sports club you can be neutral and unbiased towards different sport clubs. That is not possible with identifying and promoting identity politics.
Identity politics leads to bias. They (media and politics) often think it decreases bias. That is how little they know about reality.
That is why you need a good spiritual teaching that loves and respects everyone. That has the task to unbias you. At the end, you have no identity and therefore you can identify with everyone.
If you see something as a sin in a spiritual denomination (like homosexuality), but you love the sinner that could also work, too. You become unbiased towards the sinner, because you love and respect that person.
If the negativity is based on the religion it is hard to do anything. You have to explain that hate is negative and that is why the religion is false or so.
But can you say this when there is an active force suppressing your stories and your likeness, like there was historically in Hollywood? Black actors, regardless of talent, were given roles of maids and butlers. Asian roles were given to white people in yellow-face. How can this not be a problem?
And I literally had an Asian friend tell me that, in her experience, Asians (from Asia–not Asian Americans) were afraid of black people because there aren’t many in Asia, and all they see in media is them portrayed as violent or criminals. Now, this was 20 years ago, and a lot has changed in 20 years, but to say representation doesn’t matter just is wrong. I’m not saying it’s the only or most important factor, but it does play a significant role.
I wholly disagree here. The homogenous nature of man almost necessitates healthy representation in media especially, because where we often choose to live and raise our families naturally tend to be people whom look like us. The most notable example of this is the experience of Black Americans whom up until the 70s were almost exclusively cast as subservient or criminal; a sentiment that exists to this day. Representation in that case isn't just an increase in "black roles" but more of a diversification of what a Black person is.
There was real social impact when Mr. Roger's casually dipped his feet in a pool with his black mailman. Florida Evans' insistence on having a present working husband on "Good Times" helped to pull back on the statistically false stereotype of the absent or delinquent black father.
The only division that stems from such representation comes from those that refuse to go against the biases learnt in their homogenous upbringing, what often results is more mutal understanding and respect.
The Black film community was vibrant and thriving long before the 1970's.
Atht is where we differ. I don't believe there are some evil forces suppressing our stories. This is NOT the same as race because unless you actively tell someone, nobody knows your sexuality and unless it is relevant to the story I don't see why it needs mentioning.
We are in 2024, not 1994. When I was teenager in the UK we had the following gay representation:
Julian Clary/Boy George types who were flamboyant and frankly caricatures.
The hang-over from the Carry On movies with innuendo that was all based on sex.
The fall-out of the AIDS issue where people believed we would infect people by touching them!
Dale Winton types who were obviously gay but couldn't out themselves and there as a "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" aspect to them.
George Michael in the toilet fiasco and the seediness that stemmed from that type of story.
Lets not pretend we haven't come a long way since then with:
Its a Sin - UK program that was widely praised as shining a light on the suffering of LGBT people in the 1980s.
England Women's Football star and Jill Scott Beth Mead being openly LGBT.
Joe Lycett, Alan Carr, Tom Allen and other big name comedians on the UK circuit and widely used on TV.
Big name pop-stars like Sam Smith (you may not like his style, I don't), Ann-Marie etc.
Jake Daniels being the first openly gay footballer in the UK since 1990. Alongside Zander Murray in Scotland, and Josh Cavallo in Australia.
Gay couples portrayed in reality TV, game shows etc.
Movies like Tangerine (2015), Carol (2015), Call Me By Your Name, and Tomboy (2011) have all painted LGBT characters. It is disingenuous to suggest that movies re: gay people haven't been around. Since the 1930s there have been movie adaptations of LGBT stories.
Those are just examples from the UK without others across the US etc.
In a nutshell, I simply don't recognise that "our stories" (whatever that is supposed to mean) are suppressed. They may not SELL, in which case they won't get publicity because Hollywood is all about making money. But lets not pretend there are not narratives that can be helpful for young people today.
I wish I had the level of acceptance and narratives that we have in 2024 when I was a teenager in the 1990s. At the same time, my whole sense of self is NOT wrapped up in being gay/bi and I don't think we should promote the idea that our sexuality defines us. Also
Also what does "our stories" mean? Are we some monolith that has one single experience? I say this about LGBT, race, ethnicity, gender etc... I find this "our narrative" thing actually rather patronising because it assumes we are all the same. It is frankly ludicrous. Though I respect different opinions on this.
I absolutely acknowledge film and television has come a long way. One of my first posts in this thread lists all the tv shows that I watch that have LGBTQ+ POC characters.
That being said, it’s just a point of fact that the film and tv industry has historically suppressed non-white, heterosexual everything. Sorry – I just woke up, so I can’t find the right words. But, “they” have suppressed actors and actresses, writers, directors, storylines, etc. It is possible to acknowledge that history while still acknowledging we are far from where we started. You won’t see actors in Black Face today (Tropic Thunder excluded). You won’t really see people assigned female at birth playing Transgender female characters (like was done by Rebecca Romijn in Ugly Betty).
Simply put, since the OP is talking about queer POC representation, “our stories” refers to that, mostly. Yes…we are not all a “monolith.” That’s why telling more stories from different communities and cultures is important.
We are all individuals, yet we can find commonality in stories. Regardless of the messenger, we all have felt feelings of rejection, fear, regret, loss, hope, joy, etc, and can relate to it when we see it.
That being said, there’s something special that happens when someone can watch a show like Fresh Off the Boat and can feel a connection and relate in a more direct way. It also opens the door for other people to understand and empathize in ways that hadn’t even considered. And it doesn’t mean every immigrant family had that specific experience, but it’s likely closer to that experience in many cases than the Family Ties one (or whatever family sitcom prior to it). And it doesn’t mean they aren’t getting anything from Family Ties either.
Same with gays. Having characters like Max from Happy Endings breaking away from the stereotypes is good and important (imo). He’s gay, but incredibly sloppy (as opposed to tidy and prim), he’s into sports, and he does not have any aspect of his life together at all (other than having close friends). We need to see that. It helps us (all humans) understand each other better when we see different types of stories.
Same with gays. Having characters like Max from Happy Endings breaking away from the stereotypes is good and important (imo). He’s gay, but incredibly sloppy (as opposed to tidy and prim), he’s into sports, and he does not have any aspect of his life together at all (other than having close friends). We need to see that. It helps us (all humans) understand each other better when we see different types of stories.
And a “Max” doesn’t take away from a “Jack” in Will & Grace, it just adds to the tapestry. And having all these varieties and different stories from different communities actually shows we are not a monolith, and at the same time shows us something we can relate to on a deeper level.
It is a profound shame that complaints by social justice warriors can overshadow the rich history of African American filmmaking which began in its earliest days. From films that countered racism to the Harlem Renaissance to "Stormy Weather" and on to Sidney Poitier, the contributions of the black writers, producers, directors and actors are diminished when ignored because they do not serve a regressive agenda.
heinz.friedrich
Expert Member
I was told that Hollywood was founded by minorities mainly Jewish people. Jews are still overrepresented.
Iger, Feige etc.
If you say it is discrimination you have to proof it beyond anecdotal evidence. It is normal that they choose from the local people and there were not a lot of Black people.
That is why I recommed removing Hollywood from the USA and give it to another country. Nobody like Hollywood anyway, if you view it worldwide.
Overrepresentation is not necessary discrimination or it is discrimination everywhere. Nobody complains about overrepresentation in sports of Black people in soccer of Asian in table tennis.
There are a couple of factor that have nothing to do with discrimination.
If they see them as violent and criminals, they are somehow represented, but wrongly represented.
I had never fear of black people and I knew them only from the American media only. Now I know some people from Africa (refugees).
The people that have fear of foreigner need it. But that should not happen in the first place. You should not fear people just, because you dont see them on television.
If you need representation you can also watch sport. You dont need Hollywood.
heinz.friedrich
Expert Member
You mean women?
But that is representation. Just bad representation. You associate the real life with the media, because you think black people are different because of the media.
That would not happen if you give your media industry to Nigeria or another black country. In that case both villans and good people are black.
I dont think you need representation. I can watch an African team and also watch every kind of other team and dont feel that I lack anything. I dont think other people are different.
If I see black people badly represented, I dont think that is the case in real life. I think that is the main problem. A lot of people think the media = real life.
I do not even know this stereotype. I think this stereotype is probably told through media first and people believe it because of this.
No, I loved other races more than my own race, when I was young. But I realised that this is also a bias, so tried to erase it.
Bias has nothing to do how often you see somebody on the media. At least not that I am aware of.
I practice loving-kindness, so you automatically have less biases. That is the goal. That is also proven through studies.
In my opinion, media probably increases the biases (maybe except the sports media). At least that is what the people seem to experience, here.
heinz.friedrich
Expert Member
but where does the representation stop? Do you want representation of languages and countries? If you watch American movies you have always the same culture no matter the race.
You can have fat representation, disabled representation, height representation etc.
The more identities you have to represent the more restricted the choosing process is. We have a green party in the parliament that has only two quotas. They have a leadership of two people, one has to be a woman and one a man, one has to be on the right wing and another on the left wing. And if you choose a right wing women there is only one men who is qualified and he has automatically the job. But with these two quotas you cannot choose the POC person that is more qualified than the left wing men because he is right wing. That is how stupid this representation is.
I think netflix make the first original in Nigeria. There a only black people. That can also change a lot.
I think you should encourage black people to go into the media if you want more representation. You have automatically an overrepresenation of specific groups in specific fields because the interests are different and also less black people live in California.
America has a very racist history, part of which was segregation. Black people were not allowed in pools with white people. It was considered unhygienic for Whites to swim in a pool Blacks contaminated by just being in the water. That’s not something to blame media on. That’s just racist word of mouth and laws. There were actual laws.
Sorry. I guess I assumed everyone knew about the history of racism in film and television, so I’ll bring the receipts with the examples listed above.
Stormy Weather
Released in 1943
“A system ingrained in racism and White privilege, the Hollywood studios were rarely decent to their Black talent.”
The Hidden History of Lena Horne and ‘Stormy Weather’
“[Lena] Horne should have been the biggest star of her era…. However, due to racism and sexism, she would forge another path, one that put her on the frontline of the civil rights movement, and got her blacklisted from Hollywood for a time.
…Horne was the first Black actor to sign a seven-year-deal with a major Hollywood studio, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (MGM). Still, due to racist practices within the studio system and across the country, Horne was relegated to bit parts or individual musical numbers that could easily be sliced out of films when they played in the volatile Southern states. “They didn’t make me into a maid, but they didn’t make me anything else either,” Horne revealed….
The jazz singer’s role in Stormy Weather was supposed to be different. That same year, she’d starred as the sultry femme fatale, Georgia Brown in Cabin in the Sky, a role that confined her to the Jezebel stereotype that most light skinned Black actresses of the period were forced to embody.
…Stormy Weather was not a critical nor box office success when it debuted. However, for one of the first times on-screen, Black people were not relegated to humiliating service roles. Black moviegoers were able to basque in Black joy and pain that had nothing to do with racism or whiteness. They were simply allowed to be. The film also paved the way and began shifting the foundation in Hollywood for actors like Dorothy Dandridge and Harry Belafonte, who would emerge in the following decade.
…Horne was the first Black actor to sign a seven-year-deal with a major Hollywood studio, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (MGM). Still, due to racist practices within the studio system and across the country, Horne was relegated to bit parts or individual musical numbers that could easily be sliced out of films when they played in the volatile Southern states. “They didn’t make me into a maid, but they didn’t make me anything else either,” Horne revealed….
The jazz singer’s role in Stormy Weather was supposed to be different. That same year, she’d starred as the sultry femme fatale, Georgia Brown in Cabin in the Sky, a role that confined her to the Jezebel stereotype that most light skinned Black actresses of the period were forced to embody.
…Stormy Weather was not a critical nor box office success when it debuted. However, for one of the first times on-screen, Black people were not relegated to humiliating service roles. Black moviegoers were able to basque in Black joy and pain that had nothing to do with racism or whiteness. They were simply allowed to be. The film also paved the way and began shifting the foundation in Hollywood for actors like Dorothy Dandridge and Harry Belafonte, who would emerge in the following decade.
I remember in the early 2010s, going to the annual Asian film festivals in NYC and they were often safe spaces for Asian content creators and actors to feel seen and celebrated in ways that just wasn’t mainstream at the time.
Fast forward to today with crazy rich Asians, beef, EEAAO, etc. I can only imagine the amount of people Stephanie Hsu inspired. Cuz 1, she was SERVING LEWKS in EEAAO
But more importantly, she was relatable in ways that I could only see passively just from the Asian friends I grew up around. I can only imagine how intimate it felt for them.
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