Is Clinton vs. Obama really necessary?

"god fuck you all" LOL

Great video sargon20.

But that's the problem, Trinity.

Even with MI and FL, Hillary would NOT take the lead.

When Hillary takes the lead by 200 delegates, then I'll vote for Hillary. Why wouldn't you do the same for Obama. Honestly, if Hillary or Obama wins, we all win...I'm just worried as to why you don't see it as such.

By your own logic, you should vote for Obama because HILLARY says he's better than McCain.

If you search my post history, it's something I said before the Pennsylvania primary: that I would not vote for McCain.

...but hey, you people want to believe whatever you want. I can't stop you, right?

The desperation is palpable when Hillary refers to Karl Rove's breakdown of the numbers and Trinity cites National review. Whoare they going to sidle up to next, Rush Limbaugh?

Has it never occurred to them that these parties might be just a little disingenuous? Too funny.

It is too funny that I've had to watch Fox News instead of CNN because CNN is in the tank for Obama...(and several others media outlets too). While the conservative news outlets have by no means lived up to their claim of being fair and balanced in the truest or purest sense...they have added some balance into the Democratic Primary for their own diabolical reasons. As Gov. Ed Rendell noted, "They hate both our candidates equally..." By covering Hillary Clinton where others haven't, giving her media time, covering issues more indepth that Obama's world want to ignore such as the article in the National Review.

There are millions of voters who aren't on Obama's bandwagon...conservatives cover it. CNN makes big news of "private talks" of fundraisers teaming up with the Obama campaign as if Obama needs any help from Hillary Clinton's people in fundraising. That is pro-Obama b.s. The story of millions of voters who aren't with Obama that's the real story...if Obama wants to be President.

I have changed my mind, that is a good thing about American, we can change our minds. And your right, a vote for McCain is a vote to continue the bush legacy.
I believe that this democratic nomination has been a mess from the start. The idea that Michigan and Florida voters will not be counted is beyond my comprehension. The rules were made up by republican legislators in both states to change the dates of the primaries, so now we are going to let those people's votes go uncounted?
I feel that Hillary is the best choice the DNC could make. BUT, regardless who gets the democratic nod, I will work hard and donate to make sure they win.
Landon

How is a vote for mccain a continuation of the bush legacy first of all? Do you guys really believe that obama crap? Mccain is barely loved by his own party because he is more of a liberal conservative than anything else. Hell, if you guys want "change" the best thing would probably be for him to become president, because that would force conservatives to move a little more to the middle and be accepting of certain liberal values. Obama is as socialist as you can get and if you think that is going to bring about "change" your trippin.

And to what Trinity said, it is embarrassing how cnn and msnbc cover obama, they are totally on his nuts. It is a sad sad day when I have to watch fox news to get decent no spin coverage on the democratic race. And if you actually watched Karl Rove on fox he does in fact know what he is talking about and everything he predicts pretty much comes true. Of course demos just hate him because he is karl rove but the man is a mad scientist when it comes to this shit, he actually impressed me. Isn't he the mastermind of two elections won by the most retarded man to ever serve as president? Not many people can make that happen.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Trininty,

Normally I try to be respectful of others opinions but with you I am sorry, you just come across as bitter. I have read several of your posts amongst several threads and your stance makes no sense. If Clinton does lose and you dont vote for Obama (whether you write in Clintons name or dont vote or vote for McCain) you are going against everything Clinton believes in and you make her vision for the democratic parter even harder to come true. A Repub president can still hamper progress that the democrats want to make with vetoes of their bills and programs of his own. If you are a Hillary supporter, then by default, you need to be an Obama supporter. If not, then you never were in it for the party and the good of the country but for the person. This is bigger than just Obama or Clinton, it is about remaking America, bringing it back to where it once was and with attitudes such as yours, I can see that this task may be one that does not come through to fruition. You need to take a deep look into the direction your candidate wants this country to go in and where you want it to go in and make an informed decision. Voting against your party is ridiculous!

This is from CNN:

If Clinton throws her support to Obama and the party rallies behind him, Clinton's supporters will probably follow suit, Peffley said.

Right now, Democrats are choosing between Clinton and Obama, who have similar policies. In the general matchup, the differences between the Democratic candidate and McCain will be much more distinct.

"I can't imagine that anyone who would vote for Hillary Clinton would end up voting for McCain. If you look at the issues, there's a huge divide between Hillary and McCain," Peffley said.

Stephen Voss, a specialist in elections and voting behavior and a professor at the University of Kentucky, said that given the disappointment of Clinton's likely loss coupled with Obama's liberal leanings, it's quite possible some of her more moderate supporters might switch to McCain, but not enough to shake up the election.

If Obama can line himself up with Clinton and line McCain up with the Bush administration, he'll have a better chance of winning over the working class, according to the experts.

"The associations with George Bush are just too devastating for them to cross party lines at this point," Peffley said.

I'm posting the article from CNN because it is saying the same thing you are...that they hope and believe that Dems who support Hillary won't cross party lines...that they can't.

Get this...Many Democratic supporters of Hillary Clinton supporters can and will cross party lines or stay home if Obama is the Nominee or the top of the Democratic Dream Ticket (I say that because Obama's camp is starting to show signs they are recognize that his chances are heading the way of McGovern, Dukakis and Kerry and throwing out symblance of compromise and may eventually work up to that)

It doesn't matter if the expert PhD keeps saying it because he wants someone to believe it or you attempt to impose some idealogical persuasion of shame by taking a manufactured high political Democratic and patriotic moral ground. Voters are prepared to stay home, write in Hillary or go for McCain. Obama's problem with some Blue Collar workers, some White Working Class are also referred to as Reagan Democrats because sometimes for several reasons they vote across party lines. There are more Democrats than Republicans because of Defections to Dems and Indeps. Reagan Democrats and Blue Collar Workers have strong support for Hillary Clinton because she has represented their issues and voiced their concerns. This is about class. Not race. Obama should NOT need Hillary Clinton to persuade them to vote for him. If Obama is unable to reach them then that candidate is not electable. More of Obama supporters will support Hillary Clinton than vice versa. And it has nothing to do with race or education...it has to do with class and Obama's bitter comments and membership in a church for 20 years that publically ridiculed the nation Obama wishes to lead. Calling a strong base of voters rednecks, racist, and implying they are unable to reason correctly and without prejudice and at the same time insinuating that their concerns with Obama's judgment for his membership in that type of church amounts to racial bias against Obama, is a sure way of completely alienating that base. Millions of Women as a party base have made it clear that they will make their voice heard with their vote if the Party continues to ignore their valuable support for Hillary Clinton.

Millions do not believe Obama will make the best President. Millions do not believe or trust his rhetoric. Millions may not accept Obama as the lessor of the two evils. It cannot be put any more simple than that.

Foremost is the unfairness in the Party selection of a nominee. Clinton and Obama have been throughout this race running neck and neck, evenly matched and in need of a tie breaker. So many people have stated that FL and MI should not decide the nomination and the SuperDelegates should not decide.

If those two factors should not make the ultimate decision of who the Nominee should be then that required the primary race for pledged delegates to be completely fair, clean and unbiased in anyway. If we are basing the nomination on a small lead which does not secure the nomination then the small lead must be garnered in the fairest most Democratic fashion. That did not happen in this Primary.

Everybody is arguing about not changing the rules after the fact but if there ever was a time for a Party to make some adjustments in the middle of the race this is it! Several times, Howard Dean and party leaders have stated early on they never invisioned that the race would be so tight. It has never been so close. This primary is so close that neither candidate is able to reach the required number in pledged delegates without SuperDelegates. The proportional allocation of pledged delegates was in many cases arguably unjust. The caucuses arguably were unjust. The decision and manner of sanction to FL and MI unjust. The gender bias unjust. Media partiality unjust. All together the injustices coupled with a long race and the fear of damage to the Democratic brand led to calls for the woman in the race to concede before the race was even over, and continuous propaganda that she was unable to win. Voters were influenced by this and so were SuperDelegates...unfairly. And still the candidates are only separated by less than 2 percent.

The closeness of the race dictates that something be done to add back in the fairness otherwise, the coronation of Obama will be short lived. The best solution is a Clinton/Obama Democratic Dream Ticket. Obama could run for President for 8 more years and have 16 years leading this nation. But it seems that it takes millions of people doing what I believe they will do for some people to go with the best solution when its staring them right in the face. If Obama supporters only care about beating the Republicans they would have no problem with Clinton being selected as the nominee by the SuperDelegates.

If Florida and Michigan being seated "as is" will result in the same outcome, then the Obama should agree to seat them that way. Obama only maintains his lead with SuperDelegates...who probably wouldn't have been so quick to jump to the Obama camp if Hillary Clinton had been up in the delegate count with her wins in those two important states for November.

"In it for the Party and in it for the good of the country..." I definitely want the best for my country. Are there circumstances that I would accept the lesser of two evils to ensure the future of our Nation? Perhaps...if the the Nation and Party were standing on the principles of Democracy and fairness. I do not feel we have. I had enough with of accepting a sham of our election system after Gore was made to give up the Presidency and Kerry was swiftboated. I don't feel it is right for half of my party to demand I accept all of the unfairness in this primary out of fear of the Republicans. We need to fix the issues in our election system overall, correct the issues that don't work in our Democratic Party rules and as a society address the gender and race issues that reared their ugly heads in this presidential race. In order to bring this race to a unified conclusion we must do two things...make it fair so that a validated Nominee can be selected and if we were truly the party we claimed to be and you believed everything you said to me: compromise on both sides and go for the Dream Ticket: Clinton/Obama 2008.

otherwise forcing Obama may result in him winning the battle but losing the War.

You made a recent statement that the Democratic party's responsibility was to represent itself - well it occurred to me that the primary responsibility of a political party is in fact to represent voters, or rather it should be. This is a key element of the broader issue you doggedly avoided earlier. You argued that half the party should not be asked to ignore the other half, that millions do not support Obama - that's quite true and Trinity that's fine, but those very same arguments cut both ways. It's this simple reality that you seem unwilling to accept.

Trinity, I argue with you not because you support Clinton (I couldn't care less about that), or that you dislike Obama (I couldn't care less about that either) but because you are so transparently disingenuous, negative and duplicitous while doing so.

Your argument, while perfectly valid from a perspective of personal preference, is fundamentally flawed from most others, not the least of which is expressed voter preference. And ultimately, right or wrong choice, that's what elections are about, people making a choice. Abstaining is one's right, but it should be done for the right reasons. You say it's only because you believe Obama is unfit, honestly I'm unconvinced that's the whole truth.

I believe your motives are personal, not 'patriotic', I think you prefer division where it's the opposite of what's required if you can't get your own way. If you honestly believe that another Republican administration is preferable to not having Hillary as nominee that's your choice of course, but however conveniently and 'patriotically' you seek to rationalise your stance, with claims of unfairness and injustice - your latest comments simply reek of sour grapes.

again, it's a flawed assumption that every person voting for Obama or Hillary is a democrat.

*cough* *cough* independents *cough* *cough* ideals my arse *cough* *cough*

I made no such statement in regards to the party. And of course it cuts both ways...nothing I've said contradicts that.

Nowhere have you shown me to be disingenuous, negative or duplicitous. I believe you rarely know what you are talking about and seem never to really support your arguments or prove your points. Your negative review is a compliment coming from you.

You don't dictate what the "right reasons" are for someone to hold a view. You did not identify fundamental flaws in voter preference in my post. You simply express your opinion that my views were flawed. Again, You don't dictate what is right and wrong.

Of course my views are personal to me. And my views are also patriotic. People throughout history have stood up to be a voice of dissent not to be divisive but to make our government and our laws work for all citizens and so that everyone could be represented fairly. You have been and continue to read want you want despite the fact that the words typed are very clear. No where in my post did I say what you state about another Republican administration. And no where did I rationalize my views because I do not have to rationalize anything when my views are just as valid as yours.

There are no sour grapes in my post. I believe that everything can work out and will work out...if we work together. It may not go exactly the way I want it but I do hope for the best. That doesn't change my views. If you and the other Obama fans do not agree with my views that is your choice, but that does not invalidate my views in any way or mean they are flawed.

Everytime you've posted in reference to me Hazel you looked stupid. Check each one then try that again. You've ended up with egg on your face for months now. You've always ended up either using profanity or just name calling because you could not respond with anything else.

I mentioned independents in the post above. I'm not making any flawed assumptions. And I've discussed Dems Indeps and Reps in my most recent posts so I recognize that Independents are playing a huge part in this election.

Apart from his militarism, McCain would certainly shift the center in a big way. But the militarism, um ...
Interesting, though.

You know, Skull ... only an American could think that.

A backhanded compliment (very), but a real one too.