Discrimination against gays?

Phil Ayesho · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty Videophile

We pay taxes for public education yet few of us have children.

So what? Those who do not have children directly benefit from the production and education of additional members of society to replace those that age and die.

Who the hell is gonna be your doctor when you are 70? WHo the hell is gonna be keeping the economy rolling?
You OWE the society in which you live your fair share of the costs of maintaining that civilization.
Period.

Other than the above... Sure, gays should get equal treatment before the law...
Its a constitutional guarantee.

But then... when it comes to health insurance and social security... I believe we should all get the same kind of coverage as our CONGRESSMEN voted for themselves, too.

Tardis 69 · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinylBoy

Now how ironic is that?
Without these drag queens, we wouldn't of had the Stonewall Riots, nor the first ever Gay Pride March to begin with. Without these dramatic outbursts of protest, we wouldn't even be here on this board talking about gay rights at all. We probably wouldn't even have Hate Crime Bills. Hell, homosexuality would probably be still considered a disease. Talk about biting the hand that fed you?

I never understood why some gay people would be embarrassed about these kinds of things? Sometimes, I think they try so hard to fit in with a "normal society" that anything that caters to a supposed negative stereotype of gay life makes them uncomfortable. IMO, it's not the drag queen that first comes to mind from a homophobe, or anyone that discriminates against gays. For if that was the case, we wouldn't see droves of straight men dress up like cheerleaders or Britney Spears during Spring Break, Homecoming or Halloween "as a joke".

I've never done drag, but I give kudos to anyone of them who have the guts to do it. To me, they're not an embarrassment. They're a symbol of rebellion against the norm and a reminder to everyone that gay people are here in all shades and all colors. Besides, it's not as if New York (or any city) is overrun by a drove of drag queens who all look like Joan Crawford, running down the streets of Manhattan in high heel shoes, fishnet stockings & Fendi knock-off bags screaming, "Tina! BRING ME THE AXE" to every person that walks by... all the while, whistling at any man with a bulge while rubbing their fake breasts and licking their lips. Although I have seen that during a drag performance at Barracuda one night, but I digress...

Only because they're male. A completely different social stigma that's different from who you sleep with at night. However, when the typical homophobe finds out that you're "queer" it doesn't matter how butch or straight acting you appear. They'll hate you on the sheer fact that you like dick, and you won't even have to put on a dress.

Well,i do not agree with some of your comments but you are entitled to your opinion, as with everybody else, thanks for that.

VinylBoy · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tardis 69

Well,i do not agree with some of your comments but you are entitled to your opinion, as with everybody else, thanks for that.

You're right, and we will have to disagree. Just remember, a lot of embarrassing people went through hell so that you can freely post a photo of yourself in nothing but a pair of underwear on the internet as a gay male and not be condemned for it. They deserve our respect, not our scorn.

DC_DEEP · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tardis 69

WOW!!! DC_DEEP, looking at your replies to quite a few people on here, it is obvious that people are not allowed their opinion and their say without being shot down.

You are doing precisely what you accuse me of, when I haven't done it at all. Of course everyone is entitled to his opinion - but if you post it, babe, you gotta be able to back it up. I have asked, repeatedly, for ANYONE to justify any government or corporation denying benefits to one worker and granting those benefits to another worker, based SOLELY on orientation. No one has done so. If you consider that "shooting you down," then so be it. I'm just asking for some logic here. Not who has been murdered, not who has slacked off on the job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tardis

Again if a straight guy is not interested why does their have to be an urge to convert him ? is that not sexual harrasment ?, knowing full well a guy would probably not report it because of embaressment or reflection of his masculinity.

Again, I'm not shooting anyone down here, but what does that have to do with the topic? If you ever read any of my posts on that subject, you would know how far off-base you are using that (off-topic in this thread) tactic against me. I've never tried to "convert" a straight guy, ever. I find guys that do that to be repugnant. But still, I don't see what that has to do with me paying the same taxes as my next door neighbor, but being denied the same benefits and services.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tardis

You may think i am disloyal to my gay community and that is yours or anyone else's choice but as a gay person i do not want people marching through the town centres in drag or half naked screaming and camping about rights and discrimination as a voice for me, it is embaressing and not needed.

??? Wow, where did that come from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tardis

So with regard to discrimination against gays, i would say they have far more rights and recognition than Women do. Women are still discriminated against in more ways than one and under represented in alot of aspects.

There you go mate- do your stuff, but like everyone else here, it is my opinion and i would not like to be discriminated against for it.

I never said women are not discriminated against. Again, that's not the topic.

The one difference is, at least in my country, it is still illegal to discriminate against a woman, simply because she is a woman, but it is not illegal to discriminate against a man simply because he is gay.

Final note: I'm not trying to shoot you down, as you say. I'm just trying to get you to apply some logic, and answer some questions - the questions I ask, not some that you make up.

Do you think it is OK to withhold rights, benefits, and services to one individual based solely on that individual's sexual orientation?

Mademoiselle Rouge · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC_DEEP

You are doing precisely what you accuse me of, when I haven't done it at all. Of course everyone is entitled to his opinion - but if you post it, babe, you gotta be able to back it up. I have asked, repeatedly, for ANYONE to justify any government or corporation denying benefits to one worker and granting those benefits to another worker, based SOLELY on orientation. No one has done so. If you consider that "shooting you down," then so be it. I'm just asking for some logic here. Not who has been murdered, not who has slacked off on the job.Again, I'm not shooting anyone down here, but what does that have to do with the topic? If you ever read any of my posts on that subject, you would know how far off-base you are using that (off-topic in this thread) tactic against me. I've never tried to "convert" a straight guy, ever. I find guys that do that to be repugnant. But still, I don't see what that has to do with me paying the same taxes as my next door neighbor, but being denied the same benefits and services.??? Wow, where did that come from?I never said women are not discriminated against. Again, that's not the topic.

The one difference is, at least in my country, it is still illegal to discriminate against a woman, simply because she is a woman, but it is not illegal to discriminate against a man simply because he is gay.

Final note: I'm not trying to shoot you down, as you say. I'm just trying to get you to apply some logic, and answer some questions - the questions I ask, not some that you make up.

Do you think it is OK to withhold rights, benefits, and services to one individual based solely on that individual's sexual orientation?

I would no more want rights, benefits or services denied me because of my religious or political beliefs. You should be granted access. But there will always be some form of discrimination to any minority...it seems there are always those who snub their nose at it.

I think as the old generations die off, so will many of their discriminations. Other than medical insurance and marriage, are there any other rights that i'm not aware of that are being infringed upon? I ask this seriously. As for personal discrimination, we can never change that. We can simply educate people by being good examples of whatever we are.

Maybe its perception here- but as a woman in my lifetime i've never felt discriminated against. Well, other than being told to not go into my brothers room without their permission.

Tardis 69 · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinylBoy

You're right, and we will have to disagree. Just remember, a lot of embarrassing people went through hell so that you can freely post a photo of yourself in nothing but a pair of underwear on the internet as a gay male and not be condemned for it. They deserve our respect, not our scorn.

Lol, Vinylboy, calm down it is only a jockstrap

could understand you saying that if i was nude with a massive erection in hand, but in catalogues, Billboards, magazines guys as well as girls, gay or straight or Bi are there wearing/advertising them, so maybe a lot of embaressing people went through hell for everyone as you put it and not just for me, anyway without falling out with you or DC and the whole of LSPG it is only my opinion of which like you i am entitled to, and just to correct you (not rudely) i am not scorning anyone, just saying how i feel and what my views are, anyway thats that, i will now try and leave this thread as i am feeling discriminated against for having an opinion (just kidding there pal)have a good day

Phil Ayesho · 05-14-2008

Gay people are often not allowed to make medical decisions for their hospitalized and comatose lover, not allowed to take possession of nor make determinations as to the body...are not eligible for survivors benefits from Social Security.

VinylBoy · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mademoiselle Rouge

I think as the old generations die off, so will many of their discriminations. Other than medical insurance and marriage, are there any other rights that i'm not aware of that are being infringed upon? I ask this seriously.

Those are two major ones, besides many other issues regarding the workplace, personal safety, the right to adopt children, to even having the right to intimacy behind closed doors.

Sometimes, big issues lead to many other bigger ones. For instance... A gay man can live with his life partner for years in the same household. They can't marry so they're not eligible to claim each other as a spouse when they file for taxes, although a woman who isn't married to a man can do it under the same circumstances as a domestic partnership. That also applies to life insurance and health coverage. But the worst of it happens if one of them dies. He writes a will leaving all of his possessions to his lover. But because he's a homosexual, that legal document could become null and void by the state. Which means all of his deceased lover's personal things become property of the state. If he owned a home, it would go to the state. Any money in any savings accounts? To the state. Meanwhile, a dying man can scribble a will on a napkin right before he dies to leave all of his belongings to his pet poodle and the state would recognize that.

How fair is that?

Mademoiselle Rouge · 05-14-2008

Workplace and personal safety, elaborate what you are talking about.

Tardis 69 · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinylBoy

Those are two major ones, besides many other issues regarding the workplace, personal safety, the right to adopt children, to even having the right to intimacy behind closed doors.

Sometimes, big issues lead to many other bigger ones. For instance... A gay man can live with his life partner for years in the same household. They can't marry so they're not eligible to claim each other as a spouse when they file for taxes, although a woman who isn't married to a man can do it under the same circumstances. That also applies to life insurance and health coverage. But the worst of it happens if one of them dies. He writes a will leaving all of his possessions to his lover. But because he's a homosexual, that legal document could become null and void by the state. Which means all of his deceased lover's personal things become property of the state. If he owned a home, it would go to the state. Any money in any savings accounts? To the state. Meanwhile, a dying man can scribble a will on a napkin right before he dies to leave all of his belongings to his pet poodle and the state would recognize that.

How fair is that?

I now see where you are coming from with this part Vinyl, here in the UK,Guys and guys, girls and girls can have a civil partnership which is recognised i have been able to leave my works pension and state pension, my life insurance policies to my partner, he also gets my house and everything that is in it should i die. With regard to taxes, we pay the same tax, nat insurance, and community tax etc as do other people in marriage or single, my partner also has 3 children which he pays maintenance to, but that is still not taken into account for any tax deduction etc and i do agree with that they are his children he should look out for them and pay there way.

Tardis 69 · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mademoiselle Rouge

Workplace and personal safety, elaborate what you are talking about.

I agree, i did not understand this Vinyl, what do you mean ?

9inchcanadian · 05-14-2008

Am I the only Gay man in the world that has NEVER been openly discriminated against? I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm 100% positive it does. Am I really that lucky? Even moving to another country into what is well known to be W.A.S.P-ish community I still have never been victimised or abused for my sexual preference. I don't know what my point is to be honest, I am just always amazed that so far my life has been incident free.

Perhaps just by being nice to people, other people really are nice to you?

I am only talking about OPEN oppression, not the stealth tax on homosexuality that seems prevelant in western cultures.

Oooooh that should slap the wasps nest firmly on the ass.

bek2335 · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC_DEEP

See my post above regarding taxes and schoolsNot necessarily true. Not all jobs offer group insurance. If you are going to use this argument, do you not think it would be equitable to eliminate all dependent insurance through employers? I know you are bright enough to see that the issue is not the insurance itself, but the fact that it's offered/available to heterosexuals but not homosexuals.More true in childhood, perhaps. When was the last time you heard of a gang of violent queers lurking outside a sports bar, because they decided they want to "kill the next breeder that walks out"?What the fuck does that have to do with the OP? If you actually subscribe to the idea that "women get raped, so homosexuals should have no civil rights" you are among the most stupid organisms on earth. If you actually subscribe to the idea that "in other countries, women are accused of adultry if they get raped, so homosexuals in this country should not expect equal treatment under the law", you are just an idiot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC_DEEP

If I've misunderstood your post, please feel free to clarify.

Well, what a surprise! So if it's your oppressed group who is being mistreated, you all of a sudden make good sense. If it's not a group to which you belong, they are exhibiting a "knee-jerk reaction" if they say they are unhappy about what is hideously bad treatment. And there's that word again: idiot.

Tardis 69 · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9inchcanadian

Am I the only Gay man in the world that has NEVER been openly discriminated against? I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm 100% positive it does. Am I really that lucky? Even moving to another country into what is well known to be W.A.S.P-ish community I still have never been victimised or abused for my sexual preference. I don't know what my point is to be honest, I am just always amazed that so far my life has been incident free.

Perhaps just by being nice to people, other people really are nice to you?

I am only talking about OPEN oppression, not the stealth tax on homosexuality that seems prevelant in western cultures.

Oooooh that should slap the wasps nest firmly on the ass.

Agreed, good point Canadian

VinylBoy · 05-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mademoiselle Rouge

Workplace and personal safety, elaborate what you are talking about.

I was being general about these things. We all know that discrimination does exist in the workplace based on sexual preference, but that also exists on many other levels as well. Same thing with personal safety. The same way a white guy wouldn't want to be caught in an Armani Suit with a briefcase looking lost on the back streets of Compton, the same goes for the gay guy who decides to wear tight jeans and a rainbow flag bandana in Mississippi during a Klan rally. I didn't elaborate on these issues because the same types of prejudices apply to just about everyone here. However, marriage is one that differs dramatically.

As for 9inchcanadian, I personally believe that for some homophobic people being nice is just not enough. Some just hate every ideal and concept of a gay person. I've been in many instances where I was the only gay male in a group of homophobic straight men and you can tell that even blinking at a person in a "non-straight way" would start a riot. Some even get into blatant, anti-gay redderick and will even talk about how they would beat the shit out of a gay guy. Meanwhile, they have no clue about my sexual orientation and they want me to give them a high five to show that I fit in. Now keep in mind, I know how to keep to myself and blend in when needed. I'll never call myself "straight acting", however, if my survival depends on it then I can fit in with the best of them. But you can understand how difficult it is for someone like me to be in these scenarios. Some people would just walk away, others would endure it just for the sake of feeling liked. And growing up in the inner city, when all you want more is just some friends to hang out with, you're sometimes forced to literally lie down with dogs just to get acceptance. Again, that's not fair. It may not be like that for everyone, and I envy those people who never had to go through this experience as much as I have. But it's not fun having to live a double life.

Discrimination against gays?

Originally Posted by Dirty Videophile We pay taxes for public education yet few of us have children. So what? Those who do not have children directly benefit from the production and education of additional members