Discrimination against gays?

Quoted for emphasis.

Do straw man arguments piss you off as much as they piss me off?

The fact that people actually give the "count your lucky stars" argument as an excuse for allowing bigotry in the "Land of the Free" is sickening to me.

This has nothing to do with equal protection, people start talking about a few high profile cases as their basis for protection. Most of which occured before a huge positive shift towards orientation.

I believe there has been a lot of advances made, and if a black person used stories from the 60's to describe the mindset of whites towards blacks today, it wouldn't be a fair example.

I believe the people who killed gay people, as mentioned in examples above, should be made an example of in our justice system. They in no way represent the normal people in America. This post is bitching about discremination and I refuse to be lumped in with it. There are a lot of people who might not approve of gay people but would never beat them to death or shoot them.

We all have people in our families, especially here in the South, that harbor some racist or homophobic thoughts. Hell my Great Grandma still refers to her black adopted grandson as "that colored boy" its just wrong. We have said something to her about it but honestly, i dont think she's going to change. It doesn't make it right but i seriously don't think she'd condone hanging him from a tree. We are jumping to conclusions here.

And i'm not the one who mentioned up that you should be happy because you arent being executed. I mentioned that high profile murder cases are not reflective of mainstream society anymore than prostitutes who were murdered by men who hated them.

Taxation is a goood point, D.V.. In the U.S., my biggest issue is with taxation and denial of equal civil rights and access to civil services.

I know so many people who believe these changes will come in the future and it is important to not push politicians too much on the issue. But, I would love to see a real political force and action, which includes the support of every minority group, that demands the extention of the Civil Rights Act to include GLBT, and gives deserved equal access to every civil service.

First, wanted to write that I loved reading your post.

I also desire an end to the illogical discrimination based upon who or how you love. But, I disagree that anyone can "quit making ourselves willing targets for our critics" - imo, they will find a reason to hate no matter what changes are made.

As you have seen over your life, homosexuality has moved from being pathology, a sickness, to something that is just indefinably wrong. While I agree bug chasers on the extreme end are dangers to the community itself, I disagree that there should be community wide behavioral changes so someone looking in from the outside won’t be able to point and giggle or make snide remarks. I think the only way to change the perception of GLBT is to show how diverse the community is good and bad… like everyone else.

Yes, that's precisely what I said.

Of course not! This is how flame wars start. My point was that it gets a lot worse than some of the things mentioned in the OP - not that any of those were invalid. My point was that we in the west have it pretty easy compared to a lot of people and we need to remember that. If we don't remember that we won't be watching to help others, we won't celebrate what generations have fought for, and we lose our perspective.

There wouldn't be so much discrimination against gays if there weren't so many gay people that acted totally ridiculous. That doesn't give people the right to make stereotypes about all gay people, but a lot of the stereotypes that fuel hatred against homosexuals would go away if so many of them didn't go out of their way to promote those stereotypes.

It's much the same with racism. Again, it's totally unjustified to discriminate against all black people just because some act obnoxious and violent, but it's also true that a large number of black people (moreso than white people in my experience) do act that way.

Stereotypes don't come from nowhere. People won't "find a reason to keep hating". When I was younger, I was a racist, not because of some intrinsic hatred, but because of the way a large number of black people acted, and the fact that I wasn't mature enough to keep myself from generalizing (my fundamentalist hillbilly upbringing didn't hurt either).

Now I'm more understanding and don't judge people based on their cultural peers, but nonetheless, I can't deny the facts that these stereotypes do have some truth to them.

Stereotypes build from a lot of places - but that doesn't make them genuine examples of a greater community. See, I'd guess you were racist because you didn't have access to a large and varied population of Black people and generalized all must be one way, because the other representation were a minority of the whole.

But how does that translate to thinking if straight acting gays were the norm, which they probably already are and have been, discrimnation would end? I doubt that's true. Some people just cannot move past two people with penises in a love relationship, having sex, out in the community, raising kids, married, whatever, and having to witness it or explain that to their kids.

Why force people to become an example of the "good gay" in hopes of ending discrimination, when most are already in that role? Imo, variation is the very best part of humanity - queen, straight acting, gender queer, twink, bear, whatever, it is real for them so they should own it. Those who descriminate need to learn how to respect differences and take care of their own house.

This thread was started on a rather stupid premise and doesn't go anywhere.

• On Education - we pay taxes towards education for the common good, just as we pay taxes for roads and bridges that we may or may not drive over. Why should businesses pay taxes towards education when corporations, as entities, don't have children? It's the same thing: public education is for the common good, and no one - gay, straight, elderly, childless - should begrudge the $$ spent towards the foundations of our prosperity.
• On insurance - (1) Hopefully a new Democratic president will enact universal health care so that sole reliance on corporate or privatized insurance will be irrelevant. (2) Even under the current system of privately funded health care, changes are being made towards equality. Join an organization such as HRC= Human Rights Campaign and donate money for gay rights and advocacy and only complain after being pro-active about the change!
• On "the closet" - social and cultural dynamics are changing. Find ways to move on with the changing world or move to a more gay-friendly or environment or find ways to create better understanding in your own environment.

Basically, don't whine gratuitously. It's easy to whine and to do nothing about negative circumstances. Be part of the change!

This has precisely everything to do with equal protection. What part of my post did you not understand (or not agree with)? You are the one who got off on the tangent, dear. You are the one who brought up "high profile cases," when the OP mentioned things as mundane as paying taxes and being allowed to have dependent insurance.

As for "being lumped in with it," no one accused you of being a ring leader. Just because you don't participate, that doesn't mean that discrimination is institutionalized.

Again, the topic is not about murder. It is about discrimination based on orientation. And we aren't necessarily just talking about the ideas of individuals, we are talking about government and corporate discrimination.

Equal protection means that if you and I do exactly the same job, equally well, we should be compensated equally. We are not. If we pay the same taxes, we should be entitled to the same benefits. We are not. I'm not sure which part of that you don't understand.

I understood your point. I'm not sure why you made it. It does not matter that "we in the west have it pretty easy compared to anyone else." You point is about as relevant as the cliche mother telling her child to "clean your plate, there are starving children in China." If the child eats two more bites, it is not going to keep any other child from starving.

If someone in another country has zero rights, what does that have to do with the fact that I have fewer rights than my fellow citizens in my own country?

As for remembering that it's worse elsewhere than here, well, from my point of view, if I fight for my own rights, that's advancing the rights of others, not ignoring them.

The only point the OP made that i didn't comment on, was that he was right about being denied marriage. That is the real and true discrimination in this thread. Several people brought up 3 different hi profile cases that ended in murder and thats what i was referring to.

Saying that all you have to be as a gay to be executed was ridiculous. It was just as ridiculous as the poster who chalked everything up to a comparison of living in a dangerous third world country.

Life would be a lot easier for the gay community if you were allowed to get married. I'm for it. I am not a believer in it destroying the sanctity of straight marriage. We've done way more as heterosexuals to destroy the sanctity of marriage than anyone else could dream of.

I was side tracked more on there being this black and white views of straight people and how far they would go to hurt gay people because they don't agree with them. A few people have gone off the deep end with their homophobia and that doesn't represent many people.

The problem that i have with the OP's thread is that it wasnt thought out much because several of the things listed arent direct discriminations towards gays. It was to get people talking, sadly arguing about executions and murders- pretty extreme if you ask me.

The fact that you're 100% straight and understand this is quite endearing.

WOW!!! DC_DEEP, looking at your replies to quite a few people on here, it is obvious that people are not allowed their opinion and their say without being shot down.

So here goes for my turn -

Although i am gay, i find it spoiled by a minority of gays or "Queers "as the word you used, the amount of time i have seen the gay card produced when a gayman feels he has been discriminated against, i know of two who purposely caused a scene at work so they could get the night off when refused it was "because im gay" people then back down and the person gets what they want.Which then spoils it for someone who is genuine.

Again if a straight guy is not interested why does their have to be an urge to convert him ? is that not sexual harrasment ?, knowing full well a guy would probably not report it because of embaressment or reflection of his masculinity.

You may think i am disloyal to my gay community and that is yours or anyone else's choice but as a gay person i do not want people marching through the town centres in drag or half naked screaming and camping about rights and discrimination as a voice for me, it is embaressing and not needed.

So with regard to discrimination against gays, i would say they have far more rights and recognition than Women do. Women are still discriminated against in more ways than one and under represented in alot of aspects.

There you go mate- do your stuff, but like everyone else here, it is my opinion and i would not like to be discriminated against for it.

Deno makes sense, i agree with this

My husband is in upper management for a large worldwide company. They are sensitive to gays by offering domestic partner benefits. I can't tell you how many times a person has needed to be written up or fired for absolute carelessness of their job and when my husband reports to human resources they say if the person is gay that extra special caution should be made because they could come back to the company with a lawsuit for wrongful termination. My mind can't wrap around that if you arent doing your job or showing up, or showing up intoxicated that the three write-up rule can't apply if you are openly gay.

He's been at this company for nearly a decade and its been a real problem trying to get people who obviously don't want to work out of there. It's gotten this way with race, gender and pregnancy as well.

Now how ironic is that?
Without these drag queens, we wouldn't of had the Stonewall Riots, nor the first ever Gay Pride March to begin with. Without these dramatic outbursts of protest, we wouldn't even be here on this board talking about gay rights at all. We probably wouldn't even have Hate Crime Bills. Hell, homosexuality would probably be still considered a disease. Talk about biting the hand that fed you?

I never understood why some gay people would be embarrassed about these kinds of things? Sometimes, I think they try so hard to fit in with a "normal society" that anything that caters to a supposed negative stereotype of gay life makes them uncomfortable. IMO, it's not the drag queen that first comes to mind from a homophobe, or anyone that discriminates against gays. For if that was the case, we wouldn't see droves of straight men dress up like cheerleaders or Britney Spears during Spring Break, Homecoming or Halloween "as a joke".

I've never done drag, but I give kudos to anyone of them who have the guts to do it. To me, they're not an embarrassment. They're a symbol of rebellion against the norm and a reminder to everyone that gay people are here in all shades and all colors. Besides, it's not as if New York (or any city) is overrun by a drove of drag queens who all look like Joan Crawford, running down the streets of Manhattan in high heel shoes, fishnet stockings & Fendi knock-off bags screaming, "Tina! BRING ME THE AXE" to every person that walks by... all the while, whistling at any man with a bulge while rubbing their fake breasts and licking their lips. Although I have seen that during a drag performance at Barracuda one night, but I digress...

Only because they're male. A completely different social stigma that's different from who you sleep with at night. However, when the typical homophobe finds out that you're "queer" it doesn't matter how butch or straight acting you appear. They'll hate you on the sheer fact that you like dick, and you won't even have to put on a dress.