Who does Canada think it is?

facedowndeep

Well, the American comments have degenerated. I think the Canadians on the board have mostly (except Pierre) given intelligent and polite answers to the initial post and the more cogent responses. Pat on the back, my fellow Canadians, and now back to stretching out the bitches.

phe:
"How we choose to handle the crimes and punishment of your citizens is our business not yours."

That's a rather amusing typo.

Westy: Do you really have nothing better to do than mindlessly insult Canadians on a big-cock website? Your age is listed as 39, but your comments (and your spelling) suggest you are far too young to be looking at other wee-wees.

jason_els

Once again, our Canadian friends seem to not understand the American system of government. Not all states have a death penalty though the federal government itself does. The prisoner in question was not facing a federal sentence, but that of a state. The federal government is free to make treaties with other nations while states may not. The federal government cannot, however, dictate what a state may or may not do under its laws unless it legislates that law for all states.

That means that while the federal government may be willing to abide by Canada's terms, the state in which the prisoner was to face the death penalty, was not. The catch is working out an agreement that the state government itself would be willing to abide by.

So please do not lump all Americans into a basket of death mongerers because we are not. Fourteen states, the District of Columbia, and all US territories have abolished the death penalty.

As to the KFC remark, well, Quebec's contribution to world cuisine, the mess of cholesterol known as poutine isn't exactly any better.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -Bertrand Russell

classyron

Easy big guy... lay-off the poutine bashing... we Canadians are pacifists to a point, but we will fight over fries, gravy and cheese curds. And, for the record, it is technically Acadian, which is from the east coast and very closely related to Cajun.

Back for more. Hello Ladies!

facedowndeep

jason_els

I understand the American system of government. In the issue at hand, however, state laws are irrelevant. Extradition treaties function solely on the federal level, as being between nations. The American federal government has to guarantee that a prisoner would not face execution: that requires securing the assent of the state where he is being charged. But these are complications which have nothing to do with the issue being debated, which is whether or not Canada has the right to withhold extradition in these cases. Canada exercises this right until the prisoners right to life is guaranteed at all levels of government, federal, state, and municipal.

You're right about the poutine though. that stuff is an artery clogger. But worth it on occasion.

senor rubirosa

Not really news to me, though highly qualified by what facedowndeep says below.
But the interesting thing is that Jason is the first American to point this out. So once again, our American friends seem not to understand the American system of government. (Except Jason, of course.)

This is a reality worth pointing to, as is the contrary position of the federal government, 36 states, and the citizenry itself.

The essential point.
(Is the municipal level relevant, though?)

Touche. Chapeau. Felicitations.

Actually, while the origins of poutine are a bit murky, many authorities say it was coagulated, um, no ... created, yes, created ... in Quebec.

Rubi

____________________
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facedowndeep

senor rubirosa:

"The essential point.
(Is the municipal level relevant, though?)"

In this example, the municipal level is not relevant. I included it for the sake of a complete argument. When dealing with other nations, it very well may be. Some countries practice local execution without recourse to appeal at the provincial or federal levels.

jason_els

Depends which citizenry of course. Some states are so vehemently anti-death penalty that they have actually stated in principle, that they will not cooperate with the federal government in cases where the death penalty may be at issue. The federal government would have to sue the state government should the state government (or any county/municipality) be holding a defendant in a federal case where the death penalty may occur. In such cases the federal government would either have to take the prisoner through military force or sue the state in court to force custody.

In some cases, defendants who have allegedly committed crimes in multiple states, are apprehended in a non-death penalty state and the non-death penalty state refuses extradition to the pro-death penalty state. They essentially tell the pro-death penalty state, "When his life term expires we'll be happy to extradite him," or they work out a deal (similar to the one we're discussing here).

Perhaps this will help illuminate just how polarizing the death penalty issue, along with many others, is here in the US. States are not counties, parishes, provinces, or anything like that. They are nearly autonomous entities with their own laws and procedures. One state has a unicameral legislature. Two states aren't states at all but commonwealths. One state doesn't even have a system of common law. They all have their own highly unique constitutions which drastically reflect their view on what constitutes a good government. They have their own military forces too. The closest thing I can imagine it approximates is the situation with Scotland within the UK as it is now under devolution. It's actually fairly remarkable we've only had one serious attempt at secession though there are growing secessionist movements in various states.

I love Montreal but I would never want to live there.

Yes and no (hehe). Some states allow local prosecutors to choose to pursue a death penalty case at their discretion, but only in states which allow the death penalty. However, some states have laws which force prosecutors to seek the death penalty for certain kinds of murders. That means, in some states, that a murder conducted for a certain motive might result in a death penalty case while the exact same murder conducted the next county or town over, might not result in a death penalty case.

Much may also depend on the jury. In some states, it is the jury which decides if the death penalty is applicable and then, sometimes that determination requires a separate trial. In other states it is the presiding judge who decides whether the death penalty should be applied. In other states, neither judge nor jury has any discretion.

It's a bit complicated.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -Bertrand Russell

AlteredEgo

I'm an American, and a patriot. Also, the indignation of some of the other Americans who posted to this thread (not to mention the hypocrisy) astounds me. Yep. That's all I wanted to say.

Charles Finn

ok try this
my father shot and killed my mother when i was a baby and my sister was 3 yo.
he served 6 years for manslaughter.
killing my father for killing my mother would only make my sister and i lose the only parent we had left.
I finally was able to forgive my father in 1995.
he made a very bad mistake.
and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth we all would be blind and toothless.
because of what he did I will NEVER own a gun.
thou shall not kill but shit happens

jason_els

You have my most profound sympathies. I am horrendously sorry for your loss.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -Bertrand Russell

kalipygian

I think the position of the Dominion Government in the extradition matter is entirely respectable.

If I lived in a state with a death penalty, I would be actively working to abolish it. It is barbaric.

The federal government has conducted very few executions, since it was resumed 27 years ago there have been three executions. The military have carried out none in that time. In addition to the states that have abolished the death penalty, there are three more that have not carried any out for the same period, that is almost as good as abolished.

Looking at a map, nine out of the twelve states bordering on Canada have either abolished it, or do not actually use it. I wonder how long it will take for that civilizing influence to penetrate down to Texas?

Bod rangzen!
Free Tibet!

phe1249

phe:
"How we choose to handle the crimes and punishment of your citizens is our business not yours."

Sorry for the typo Face, often times when I am completely insulted my typing skills go out the window!

E-man

This anti-American bullshit is really starting to piss me off. As if no other countries has problems. I'm not sure if you realize it but when you insult a country, you are insulting the country's citizens. I don't see the point in pissing off most of this board because everyone thinks its fun to spit on the U.S. now that George W. Bush is handling things. Honestly, he's almost gone so everyone can stop hating us. [/angry rant]

Einwindir

Norway won't even extradite to the United States because of their inhumane prisons.

jason_els

We can always hate Canada for allowing hunting of all those cute baby seals.


And, uh, Canada is no longer a dominion.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." -Bertrand Russell