Who does Canada think it is?

Nick4444 · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalipygian

Some other arguments against the the death penalty:

It is actually more expensive due to court an legal costs for multiple appeals at several levels of jurisdiction, to execute someone, rather than warehouse them for the rest of their life, at around $60,000. per year.

Even Russia is in this matter more progressive

So, dollar values attach?

This highlights the actual indifference to human life inhering in this new piety

Gone is the moral outrage that a life may have been extinguished, met with indifference, and measured against a calculus that includes cash value (something that exists only in the minds of men)

So we are back to where does this humanistic piety arise?

Check the term "progressive"

Beginning the the spread of evolutionary theory in the 19th Century, the notion arose that humankind is steadily moving to a more advanced state, an advanced state that included a more advanced moral situation -- all falling within the pattern was the emancipation of the slaves, the liberation of women, et al

And now, the recognition that the death penalty is wrong ... one merely has to couch it in those terms to get acceptance of the notion

In fact, it means just the contrary ... it means that human life is devalued (for a different example of a different dead end reached by that line of thinking read: Pierre Teilhard de Chardin)

(But it is extremely liberating

Not requiring moral responsibility from others, we are free not to require it of ourselves ... and more liberty is found

Man can become truly great and noble, in his own mind, when he strays from the confines imposed by the notions of right and wrong, and the effect is again to raise man to the positions formerly held by the gods of our superstitions)

ManlyBanisters · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick4444

Chimps on the menu in Brussels restaurants
Bushmeat Project; Chimps on the menu in Brussels
May 16 1999

Equally worrying is the discovery of bushmeat on sale in Paris,
IPPL (UK) The Bushmeat Issue
This is just a genral webpage on bushmeat and what it is, with the passing reference you quote about bushmeat being on sale ILLEGALLY in Paris, London and Brussels.

That is one old article and a general page mentioning 3 European cities. I can show you this from 10 seconds googling:
Butchered Monkeys Found in Suitcase: USA PrimeConcern

I, however, don't assume from it that bushmeat consumption is commonplace in the USA and the the US is a barbarous country as a result. In your original post it seemed you were attempting to imply it was both legal and not abnormal.

Again I ask you, why do you think that eating bushmeat is commonplace in France and Belgium? It isn't. It is illegal.

Quote:

Among the reports that have come to me include analysis of the problem that consumers include policy-makers at the national level, and their wives, who, of course, don't, as a result, put much effort behind enforcement of the EU laws that prohibit such practices

The same policy-makers who so reverently recite the new piety that to execute humans is barbaric

I find the "morality" suspect -- what is the predicate?

You have completely failed to address my second, and main, point, you seem to think eating animal meat of certain species is a crime equal to or surpassing killing human beings.

Do you? And if so, why?

Nick4444 · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManlyBanisters

That is one old article and a general page mentioning 3 European cities. I can show you this from 10 seconds googling:
Butchered Monkeys Found in Suitcase: USA PrimeConcern

I, however, don't assume from it that bushmeat consumption is commonplace in the USA and the the US is a barbarous country as a result. In your original post it seemed you were attempting to imply it was both legal and not abnormal.

Again I ask you, why do you think that eating bushmeat is commonplace in France and Belgium? It isn't. It is illegal.

You have completely failed to address my second, and main, point, you seem to think eating animal meat of certain species is a crime equal to or surpassing killing human beings.

Do you? And if so, why?

Sorry, didn't mean to imply it was commonplace ... was pointing out that the same policymakers who were so pious about the death penalty were so suspect in other areas

Sorry, if I seem vague on the point -- yes, I do think it abominable to eat certain animal species, at about the same level of abomination as eating other humans

Yes, I have no moral qualms with the death penalty, assuming due process were followed

Yes, I have big moral problems with a human that would use its power to kill another human, or defenseless animal

Nick4444 · 6 Days Ago

At any rate, to return to the point of the thread, Canada is within its right to not return the escapee, were he to face the death penalty here

I simply do not agree the death penalty should be abolished

dong20 · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick4444

Sorry, didn't mean to imply it was commonplace ... was pointing out that the same policymakers who were so pious about the death penalty were so suspect in other areas[

Actually, I think that was exactly what you meant. Of course I can't prove it but ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick4444

Yes, I have no moral qualms with the death penalty, assuming due process were followed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick4444

I simply do not agree the death penalty should be abolished

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick4444

Yes, I have big moral problems with a human that would use its power to kill another human, or defenseless animal

Isn't that the very ethos of state sanctioned execution. The state (the executioner acting in its behalf) using its power to take the life of another defenceless person?

How do your statements fit with a stated position of believing in Absolute Morality (your stated position)? If one holds a view that deliberately planning for and undertaking the death of a Human is wrong, isn't due process irrelevant, in absolute terms?

Nick4444 · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by dong20

Isn't that the very ethos of state sanctioned execution. The state (the executioner acting in its behalf) using its power to take the life of another defenceless person?

How do your statements fit with a stated position of believing in Absolute Morality (your stated position)? If one holds a view that deliberately planning for and undertaking the death of a Human is wrong, isn't due process irrelevant, in absolute terms?

Simple my dear fellow, the individual who commits the offense punishable by death (whether it be murder, treason, etc) COMMITTED THE OFFENSE

As I stated earlier, he breached the social contract, warranting the punishment

ManlyBanisters · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick4444

Simple my dear fellow, the individual who commits the offense punishable by death (whether it be murder, treason, etc) COMMITTED THE OFFENSE

As I stated earlier, he breached the social contract, warranting the punishment

Then your morality isn't absolute it is relative.

May I ask a question? I'll assume I may

If I offered you a chimp steak sandwich or the oportunity to press the button to give a lethal injection to someone I told you was a murderer (you haven't seen the evidence yourself, you have to take my word for it) - which would you take?

Just so you know I'd be chowing down on chimp - hell, I'd go out and catch and kill the little cutie myself, and his mama too, rather than press that button.

kalipygian · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick4444

So, dollar values attach?

This highlights the actual indifference to human life inhering in this new piety

Gone is the moral outrage that a life may have been extinguished, met with indifference, and measured against a calculus that includes cash value (something that exists only in the minds of men)

So we are back to where does this humanistic piety arise?

Check the term "progressive"

Beginning the the spread of evolutionary theory in the 19th Century, the notion arose that humankind is steadily moving to a more advanced state, an advanced state that included a more advanced moral situation -- all falling within the pattern was the emancipation of the slaves, the liberation of women, et al

And now, the recognition that the death penalty is wrong ... one merely has to couch it in those terms to get acceptance of the notion

In fact, it means just the contrary ... it means that human life is devalued (for a different example of a different dead end reached by that line of thinking read: Pierre Teilhard de Chardin)

(But it is extremely liberating

Not requiring moral responsibility from others, we are free not to require it of ourselves ... and more liberty is found

Man can become truly great and noble, in his own mind, when he strays from the confines imposed by the notions of right and wrong, and the effect is again to raise man to the positions formerly held by the gods of our superstitions)

You have on other occasions been capable of somewhat clearer reasoning than you have used in this thread. You're kind of tripping over your own feet.

Nick4444 · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManlyBanisters

Then your morality isn't absolute it is relative.

May I ask a question? I'll assume I may

If I offered you a chimp steak sandwich or the oportunity to press the button to give a lethal injection to someone I told you was a murderer (you haven't seen the evidence yourself, you have to take my word for it) - which would you take?

Just so you know I'd be chowing down on chimp - hell, I'd go out and catch and kill the little cutie myself, and his mama too, rather than press that button.

It isn't relative ... I'll go further

Assume the scenario I'm in the English Channel, no, make that English Bay ... actually, the Gulf of Mexico outside of Galveston ( I keep forgetting the Mother country and Canada do not have the death penalty -- Texas still does)

I'm on one of week-end sails ... I notice a japanese traveler about to hurl a hand-held harpoon at a pod of Texas dolphins ... having my handgun at the ready, even on my yacht (it is Texas), I shoot at the would-be harpoonist ... the harpoon is picked up his young daughter, and, of course, I shoot at her, as well ... being the excellent shot I am, I kill both of them

I would turn myself in to the Texas authorities

I would confess ... the trial decision is against me

Japan's government would urge the death penalty? the japanese people?

I would accept the verdict and punishment ... I would not apologize to the nipponese ...

Any morals relativism there?

Nick4444 · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalipygian

You have on other occasions been capable of somewhat clearer reasoning than you have used in this thread. You're kind of tripping over your own feet.

I don't believe so, then too I am full of 101 proof

I'll reflect on you assertion

dong20 · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick4444

Any morals relativism there?

Absolutely.

You determined that the potential loss (the harpoon had not hit anything, right) one life was worth the taking of two others, perhaps three.

Let me extend the story, if the daughter had been pregnant would you have still killed her? If not, why not, if so why?

I agree, quit while you're not too far behind.

jason_els · 6 Days Ago

Yeah, Nick, sleep it off. I know you can do better than that.

Nick4444 · 6 Days Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason_els

Yeah, Nick, sleep it off. I know you can do better than that.

'k

midlifebear · 6 Days Ago

As a 'Mericuhn expat who gets the willies whenever I'm required to return to the USA because of some business issue that can not be handled via PDF files and my accountant, HAVE I MENTIONED HOW MUCH I LOVE CANADA LATELY? I do. Truly, I do. Not only have I memorized Fakin' Eh, I speak French better than I do Spanish and can imitate an almost perfect Quebecois accent.

Yeah, I know. If I love Canada so much why don't I move there? I'm thinking about it. Just Air Canada's direct non-stop flights from Toronto to Buenos Aires, Argentina, and Barçelona, Spain are about enough to make me change teams. It wouldn't take much to dissolve my Nevada LLC and reform it in Kelowna BC, thus providing six new full-time jobs for Canadian citizens. I've already lined up the husband of an old colleague who is a provincial judge to push through the paper work. I think I'm just biding my time until I see the results after the USA election in November.

My only criticisms of Canada these days (I know, high taxes, but what do you expect?) are: 1) Why can't Stephen Harper buy a suit that fits? and 2) Why hasn't he and his coalition been voted out of office by now?

NOTE TO MODERATORS: There is no smiley emoticon waving a red maple leaf. What gives?

senor rubirosa · 6 Days Ago

Nick, you've had the rubester hornswoggled for a bit.
Just sayin'.
(PS: What does the drunken sailor know?

)

Who does Canada think it is?

Originally Posted by kalipygian Some other arguments against the the death penalty: It is actually more expensive due to court an legal costs for multiple appeals at several levels of jurisdiction, to execute someone, rather