The question of if being gay is a choice

Again... rather than have my position misrepresented... I will restate it all in one spot.

I think this is a model that agrees with ALL the evidence thus far presented...

I think who you are attracted to ... that is, the gender that you have romantic, loving interest in, is pretty well defined by congential development... that is, partly genetic, partly the environment in which you as a fetus developed.

( recent research shows prior male children increase the odd of subsequent male children being gay- so conditions in the mother's uterus have an effect that is not strictly genetic )

In this you have no real choice... however, evidence suggests that this parameter... call it intrinsic gayness... is a variable... ranging from exclusively interested in the same sex... thru attraction to both... to exclusively attracted to the opposite sex.

And by attracted... I mean driven to respond emotionally.

Left to itself... this parameter would determine your preference without any conscious choice.



However... in addition to that built in factor... human beings... and particularly human males, go thru a phase in childhood development where they are particularly sexually precocious.

During this phase... actual experiences can "condition" you in a way that will have a shaping effect on your adult sexuality.

For example... if you were born with an exclusively Gay bias in preference... but all your early conditioning is heterosexual... then you might end up living a fairly heterosexual, though unfulfilling, life... even getting married...
And only come to grips with your inborn preference later in life.

This takes time because your conditioning results in you being able to respond sexually to women... as a learned behavoir... That this response is lackluster is something you will not clue into until you have had experience with men.


Similarly, If you were born heterosexually biased... and experienced homosexual play as a child... you might end up being the kind of man who, while falling in love only with women... nevertheless has learned to enjoy circle jerks... cock sucking.. or some other not hetero activity that nevertheless you had exposure to.

If all it was was seeing other boys erections... you might well end up being a person who thinks and acts perfectly straight... yet really gets off on looking at and talking about other guy's dicks on a website....

Many fetishes can be traced to distinctive experiences as a child that had a formative effect on your developing sexuality.

I think this model makes sense because it incorporates human adapatability to new cultural situations.
It explains certain greek and Guinea tribal cultures in which young boys were removed form their mothers and quite literally "raised gay"... and who had great difficulty, later in life, with marriage and sexual relations with women.


In short... its Nature AND Nurture... but because the formative experiences of nurture happen to you as a child... and usually you have little control over the form they take...
there really is very little "choice" involved.

You are fluent in the language you were raised with...

You weren't born speaking it... but you were born with an inherent ability to acquire language specifically at a certain age.

As a child you picked it up because your genes acted to prime you for language at a specific developmental age.

But is your fluency in your native tongue something you CHOSE?

Not really..


In sexuality...
born with an inherent preference, or mix of preferences.

Formative experiences as a child "shape" those inborn preferences.



And yes... I think some people can get beyond their programming.... both genetic and experiential... and learn to love anything that affords pleasure by simply eliminating their prejudices and feelings of guilt.


But I don't think you can "learn" to fall in romantic love with the gender you are not born to prefer.

Therefore... I don't think your sexual activity, per se, defines gayness. I think its defined by who you want to share your life with... who you go weak kneed over...

Yea being gay is the question on the the survey you feel out before you were born, it follows
eye color?
Right hand/left hand?
hair color?
skin color?


please are we not over this now!!!!!!!! ITS NOT A CHOICE

i'm gay myself but i understand the argument from the other side that pursuing the lifestyle IS a choice

thinking is good, but trying terribly to understand THE OTHER SIDE in your question, you place YOURSELF and them in neat little boxes that have little to do with life and its possibilities. it's better if you try to understand yourself, and be true to yourself. it might be healthy to pursue your own interests, based on who you think are, what you aspire to be, what you learn, how you interact with people, and what life brings!

someone trying to control or "value" the sex life of others is very possibly either miserable, a closet sex-maniac, or power-hungry who wishes to gain something by this control.

an outsider judging others based on assumptions of their "life styles" won't have a clue.

one has to decide whom to listen to for support and advice. for instance, i won't pain my days listening to my stupidest, meanest relatives, or the religious right's latest witch hunts, or the neo-nazies claims for Hitler's sainthood... one can choose which other side to try to understand:)

maybe i should've elaborated, my parents raised me christian and although i never (still haven't) come out to them, our pastor preached about homosexuality in this light: having sexual desires for men is a sin (guess i'm guilty as charged) but pursuing that lifestyle, hooking up with men, ENGAGING in those desires is what warrants the title 'gay lifestyle'. i don't care either way i love dick i guess i was just trying to bring another perspective into the discussion. obviously most of us here are going to (and have posted) that it's not a choice i thought this could've been a one-sided thread

Gay people are born gay, end of story.

Yeah, it's a choice.

We get a badge, a membership number, a hat and cool card for our wallets.

It's actually one big secret club like the Masons, we just don't tell straight people about it.

Choose Gay, today!

10% off new membership up until the 1st of June 08

I want to note that I am in agreement with what you and DC DEEP have said. Orientation is an unalterable characteristic that we are born with. Over time and with societal interaction, people either realize their orientation or they don't. Once they realize it, they either choose to live openly or they live closetly, or they repress it totally. Those are the only choices involved.

I was born gay. I did not realize I was gay, however, until I was mature enough to understand that I was actually attracted to men and confident enough to face it in the face of a mostly unaccepting society. This happened well into my 30s and after I was married with children.

This is where I want to give you something to consider:

1. The "lifestyle" argument is an outgrowth of the choice argument and is a code-word for homophobia. When people say lifestyle, they are assigning to you several stereotypical behaviors and actions that you may or may not partake in. These behaviors "mark" you as obviously gay in their eyes and thus make you different. Please remember that they manner in which you live you life and the orientation you have do not have a causal relationship. It's like saying I have to like rap music because I am black. It's nonsense.

There is no such thing as a gay lifestyle. I take care of my kids, work, give to charity, drink beer, flirt with men, love football and other sports, live with my significant other, etc. Nothing out of the norm about that.

2. Not acting on the impulses of your orientation makes one no less gay than the person who acts upon it. Like you said--it is where you head is, not where you cock is.

what about guys who are straight for the first part of their life and later discover their homosexuality?? were they born gay??

No, they're a result of the recruitment drives we have every now and again. We do it to through straight folks off the scent of the secret society.

me and my gay friends use the term 'gay lifestyle all the time'. i have some friends who are like you, kids, work, etc... and i know some people who literally spend all their time just tryin to get dick, that's what we mean when we say lifestyle. someone who's always in the club, always tryin to get some play. i don't understand the comment about lifestyle=code word for homophobia

Like tuperware partys! or that lady who drives the pink Cadillac, her partys

Substitute "pussy" for "dick" and you will see that many straight men (married and single) do the same. Thus, this "lifestyle" does not exist, or if it does, it is neither gay or straight, but just a partying lifestyle.

What inteligent man in his right mind would debate.....

I can choose this "road" which is rather smooth and free of social conflicts.
OR...
I can choose this "road" which is lifetimefull of conflicts, judgement and , and sneers from people you don't even know you and not a easy path at all???????

Which road would you "choose" if you could choose?

The question should be: "is same-sex attraction a choice". Being "gay" usually implies rainbow flags, hanging out in bars and living in certain neighborhoods.

My attraction to men is not a choice. If I could, I would choose to be attracted to women and maybe get married and have children. But I am mostly attracted to men. So I date them, looking for mister right. However, I choose to live a pretty straight lifestyle. Not promiscuous, don't hang in gay bars, don't cruise public places, don't have any rainbow flags, don't live in gay neighborhoods, don't wear typically gay clothes, don't "party", etc etc. I'm not saying all gay people do those things, but that is the image presented to mainstream society and exactly the image that some men who are attracted to men want to avoid like the plague.

Some of those guys say, "I'm straight, but like dudes".

Masculine men attracted to men (no matter if they identify as gay, bi or straight) who do not live the "gay lifestyle" are invisible in our society.