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Why Hillary Should Be Winning

Originally Posted by TinyPrincess I agree - both Obama and McCain can be trusted (well, to an extend). No such thing with Billary, she's 100% liar. So this election is between a young somewhat unproven

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Old 04-10-2008   #31 (permalink)
littledickboy111 is offline

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyPrincess View Post
I agree - both Obama and McCain can be trusted (well, to an extend). No such thing with Billary, she's 100% liar.

So this election is between a young somewhat unproven candidate, who might be a really great president, and a candidate, who should have been president 8 years ago, but might just be to old now - I really like McCain, but I'm really having difficulties seing him as president for one or two terms. Or is the Oval Office a retirement home?
It's time for change - McCain style!

Oval office desk? No more!
Oval office craftmatic adjustable bed!

Meeting with foreign leaders? No more!
Meeting with fig newtons.

Press conferences? No more!
He'll just yell things out the window of the white house about "those stupid teenagers"
 
Old 04-10-2008   #32 (permalink)
DrummerInATL is offline

I think McCain will do fine answering those 3am phone calls. He'll be up anyway at that hour trying to pee. :D

(credit to Bill Maher for that one)
 
Old 04-10-2008   #33 (permalink)
Shelby is offline

Hillary has Elton John.

Obama has Scarlett and Jessica.

Decisions, decisions...
 
Old 04-11-2008   #34 (permalink)
TinyPrincess is offline

Quote:
Originally Posted by littledickboy111 View Post
It's time for change - McCain style!

Oval office desk? No more!
Oval office craftmatic adjustable bed!

Meeting with foreign leaders? No more!
Meeting with fig newtons.

Press conferences? No more!
He'll just yell things out the window of the white house about "those stupid teenagers"
LOL
 
Old 04-11-2008   #35 (permalink)
TinyPrincess is offline

Quote:
Originally Posted by chizz View Post
I think McCain will do fine answering those 3am phone calls. He'll be up anyway at that hour trying to pee. :D

(credit to Bill Maher for that one)


And Billary would be out smoking (oops, but not inhaling)...
 
Old 04-12-2008   #36 (permalink)
Freddie53 is offline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick4444 View Post
Originally Posted by Freddie53 http://www.lpsg.org/images36/buttons/viewpost.gif
I will vote for the Democratic nominee regardless who he/she is come November.


Could I get an elaboration of this?

You've always seemed like an intelligent, careful & balanced thinker, so this surprises me a bit.
Yeah you can get an explanation. I don't really see anyone other than Hillary or Obama being the nominee. While I am for Hillary, I have no problem supporting Obama if he is the nominee.

The only dark horse I see as a posssibility is Gore. And I would support him as well.

I won't vote for McCain. So, I don't have much of a choice but support the Democratic nominee.
 
Old 04-20-2008   #37 (permalink)
Nick4444 is offline

getting back to the issues, proposed healthcare policies seems to be the greatest delineation among the candidates, so I have copied the WSJ article in toto, as the article may be subscriber only content, and, hence, possibly not accessible were I to post a link to non-subscribers


not a particularly strong issue for me, but wondered how the rest of you thought about it





Parties' Split Most Apparent on Health Care

Democrats, Republicans Differ
Over Roles of Government
And Market to Revamp System

By LAURA MECKLER
April 19, 2008; Page A4


Washington
As the presidential candidates respond to increasing economic anxiety about many issues, some of the sharpest differences in this fall's debate are expected to involve health care.
While the Democratic candidates want to use government as a lever to aid the 47 million people in the U.S. without health insurance, Sen. John McCain would rely much more heavily on the free market. The likely Republican nominee has begun charging that his Democratic rivals "want government to take over the health-care system."
SHARP CONTRASTS

Campaign Issue: Democrats and Republicans differ widely in their proposals for reforming the U.S. health-care system.
Democrats' Approach: The two candidates want to use government as a lever to aid those without health insurance.
Republican View: John McCain would rely more heavily on free-market forces.




With Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama focused on their own contest, Elizabeth Edwards, wife of former candidate John Edwards, has stepped in and begun attacking the McCain plan.
Though Mrs. Edwards says Democrats aren't proposing government-run health care, she finds it ironic that Sen. McCain is so averse to it given that he has had nothing but such coverage since birth. A young John McCain was first insured as the son of a Navy man, then as a Navy officer himself and finally as a member of Congress.
"He has not spent a single day not protected by a federal health plan, not a single day of his entire life, and yet he denigrates this care," said Mrs. Edwards, who recently joined the Democratic-leaning Center for American Progress as a senior fellow.
While Sen. McCain agrees with the Democrats on some issues, such as climate change and, after some initial resistance, aid for struggling homeowners, differences on taxes and other economic issues, including health care, are likely to be a sharp contrast.
The Democrats' priority is to cover all, or nearly all, the uninsured, except for several million illegal immigrants. Both candidates would have government set up a marketplace where people could buy coverage from private companies or the government, with subsidies for lower-income earners. The candidates also would bar insurance companies from rejecting people with pre-existing conditions or charging them more.
While Sen. Clinton would mandate that everyone be insured, Sen. Obama wouldn't -- a difference that has been a source of debate between them.
Sen. Clinton has charged that Sen. Obama's plan would leave millions of citizens uninsured; Sen. Obama has countered that people will get insurance once it is affordable. Many health economists agree with the New York senator, but Sen. Obama's position might be easier to defend in a general-election debate.
While Sen. McCain regularly attacks both Democrats together, he has made clear he is particularly prepared to attack Sen. Clinton on the issue of mandates, which, he says, bolsters his argument that Democrats are heavy-handed and would leave citizens with less choice.
The Arizona senator dismisses the fact that people could choose which health plan to sign up for under either Democrat's plan. "If you mandate, as Sen. Clinton wants to do, then, yeah, you've got a choice, but you still have a mandate. That's like saying, 'You're going to be executed -- do you want a knife or a bullet?' " Sen. McCain told reporters aboard his bus.
Sen. Clinton's policy chief, Neera Tanden, replied: "That's a great choice of words when literally people are dying."
McCain aides concede that their case against Sen. Obama could be weaker, given that the Illinois senator's plan doesn't have mandates.
Sen. McCain doesn't think it is up to government to ensure that all citizens are insured. He simply wants to give people more control and, like Sen. Obama, says people will buy insurance if it is affordable.
The centerpiece of his plan is severing the link between health insurance and employment. Under existing law, citizens get a tax break on the cost of their health insurance only if it comes through an employer. That partly explains why 170 million citizens get insurance through an employer.
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/im...0418171613.gif Sen. McCain would replace the existing tax break with a refundable tax credit ($2,500 for an individual; $5,000 a family) that would go to all citizens with insurance, no matter how they got it. The result would likely be an erosion of employer-sponsored insurance and an increase in plans bought on the open market.
"The biggest fear people have when they lose their job is losing their health insurance," Sen. McCain said last week in an economic speech. "I have proposed comprehensive reforms that will lead to innovative, portable insurance."
Democrats say his plan would be great for young, healthy people who could get a good deal on their own. But he hasn't solved the difficulty faced by older people and people with pre-existing conditions buying insurance on the open market.
Mrs. Edwards notes that the McCain plan could leave both him and her out were they forced to seek insurance on the open market. Both have had cancer, and insurance companies typically won't offer insurance to people applying on their own who have had serious medical problems.
Sen. McCain said last fall that he would help people with particularly expensive health-care needs by offering special subsidies administered through Medicaid, the state-run health program for the poor. But how that would work or who would qualify is unclear.
Sen. McCain also would let people buy health insurance across state lines. That would allow health-insurance companies to escape state regulations they don't like, such as rules allowing for appeals when companies deny coverage and rules requiring insurers to cover people with various conditions or to cover particular types of treatments. The companies would likely gravitate to the states with the regulations they most favored.
The result is that health-insurance companies would all operate out of states with few regulations, effectively stripping state rules built over decades, Mrs. Edwards said. "We can expect all our health-care policies to be written in states where little is required of them."
 
Old 04-20-2008   #38 (permalink)
midlifebear is offline

Dear Freddie53:

When I first learned about the Electoral College back in 4th grade social studies I thought it seemed a terribly unfair way to elect a president in a country that yells "Democracy!" every chance it gets. Also, Adalai Stevenson had just lost (for the second time) to Eisenhower -- a nice enough guy, but ineffectual president.

At 57 years-old I still think the Electoral College is a piss poor way to elect a president, even if it's used for some kid running for 7th Grade Student Body President.

However, it is the very best means to take away the value of an individual's vote.

As for the Hillary/Obama drama. I finally discoverd an organization that will allow me to file an absentee vote (US Embassies used to offer this service, but not anymore) for all of the candidates running for office in my little part of Nevada -- from County Sherrif, City Treasurer, to Hillary or Obama -- which ever Democrat makes it as the party candidate. Can't tell you the relief I feel, knowing I don't have to return to the USA during an election year and suffer the fear, loathing, and ducking of flying shit.

PS: Nice post, Nick444 regarding the advantages McCain has enjoyed from public health care. I never would have heard about that if you hadn't posted it. One of the BIG reasons I live as an expat is that no insurance company in the USA will touch me now that I'm a "cancer survivor."
 
Old 04-20-2008   #39 (permalink)
StapledShut is offline

The fact that Hillary took the majority in the electoral-heavy states doesn't mean she would have any better of a chance at winning them in November than Obama would. The number of voters at the primaries is not going to be the same as at the polls, nor were the numbers at the Republican and Democratic primaries the same. In some cases, Obama could very well have gotten (or get) more popular votes in some of those states than McCain. Also, even if McCain takes California, Obama could easily sweep the smaller states and build up to a victory piece by piece.

And maybe another way to look at it is that Obama should continue to hold the lead because of his winning the popular vote. Popular. People. It means more individual people want him in office. For those of you who have forgotten, that was kind of supposed to be the idea behind a democracy. The majority of the people agree on something, and that's what happens. Not this electoral Rube Goldberg bullshit converting and manipulating the data. I don't know, call me crazy, but I like the idea of having a President that atleast 50% of the voters actually elected to have in office. Eight years of a politically split nation is quite enough for me.
 
Old 04-20-2008   #40 (permalink)
Freddie53 is offline

You make some valid points there.

It is time to seriously consider another way to elect our president than the system we are using.

I hope you realize that as I explained the electoral college system, I was endorsing it. It still bothers me that Gore had more votes than Bush but the Supreme Court using the Electoral College system was able to but Bush in office instead of Gore.

We are the same age. I hope we see this change within our livetime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StapledShut View Post
The fact that Hillary took the majority in the electoral-heavy states doesn't mean she would have any better of a chance at winning them in November than Obama would. The number of voters at the primaries is not going to be the same as at the polls, nor were the numbers at the Republican and Democratic primaries the same. In some cases, Obama could very well have gotten (or get) more popular votes in some of those states than McCain. Also, even if McCain takes California, Obama could easily sweep the smaller states and build up to a victory piece by piece.

And maybe another way to look at it is that Obama should continue to hold the lead because of his winning the popular vote. Popular. People. It means more individual people want him in office. For those of you who have forgotten, that was kind of supposed to be the idea behind a democracy. The majority of the people agree on something, and that's what happens. Not this electoral Rube Goldberg bullshit converting and manipulating the data. I don't know, call me crazy, but I like the idea of having a President that atleast 50% of the voters actually elected to have in office. Eight years of a politically split nation is quite enough for me.
 
Old 04-20-2008   #41 (permalink)
HazelGod is offline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick4444 View Post
getting back to the issues, proposed healthcare policies seems to be the greatest delineation among the candidates

not a particularly strong issue for me, but wondered how the rest of you thought about it
I've talked about this before, but I don't think many people really understand so it bears repeating.

The President of the USA does not have the power to rule by fiat. I know that seven years of a GWB administration have confused a lot of people on the veracity of that statement, but it remains essentially true.

Presidents don't get to walk into the Oval Office, sit down, and declare, "OK, now I'm the boss and this is how it's gonna be!" They don't have any hammer like Hephaestus to birth their plans, fully formed, upon the nation.

Hillary has a health-care plan that she wants to force onto everyone so that everyone will be covered. It's DOA. It will never pass the Congress in that incarnation, because it's unpalatable to too many people. She feels her idea is the only way, and will cajole her circle of power elites to use their influence to try to force the issue. So, in essence, Hillary has no health-care plan.

Barack Obama also has a plan for health-care that is similar in many points. The differences, however, are greatly reflective of his leadership and experience in working with the people. Rather than force a mandate down the throats of everyone, he has not only anticipated the people who won't want to participate in his plan, he has respected this sentiment. I'm not suggesting that his plan will sail through the Congress unmolested, but coming as it does from a mindset of inclusion and understanding, it has much better odds of its core principles being carried into law.

This is why I feel it's ultimately foolish to vote for a candidate based solely on their specific policy issues. Think back...how many particular pet issues have presidents been successful in enacting as they campaigned on them? You can probably count them on one hand, and that's only if you're fairly long in the tooth.

No, I place a greater weight on those somewhat ephemeral leadership qualities demonstrated by the candidates...because we're electing a leader, not a monarch. We're holding up the person whom we believe will direct the operations of our nations with a set of guiding principles that best matches our own.

Maybe its an indictment of our society that we've had exactly that in our current administration...a greedy, self-interested liar with all the statecraft of a five-year old in a sandbox. Personally, I don't see Hillary as being any different...time and again, she's been caught in chicanery and outright lies. Her approach to foreign negotiations has been made clear multiple times...she takes the same imperialist attitude sitting in the White House right now, that our President is above other world leaders and won't deign to grant them an audience until they've sufficiently prostrated themselves. Her approach to domestic policy isn't much different...she knows what is best, and everyone else needs to just get on board her wagon or get run over. The cast of characters might change, but the show would remain the same.

Barack Obama represents a vision of political processes that break with this tradition...a more inclusive government that doesn't operate in oligarchical self-interests. His experience as an organizer are reflected in his policy statements, all crafted around the best interests of the USA as a whole. He speaks of building a working majority, including people from all sides of politics, to make these changes effective. He doesn't promise to lift the burdens of our citizens singlehandedly or in a fell swoop...but he does offer to lead us along a path where we can do this together.

I don't agree with all of his policy positions, and I'm not particularly shot in the ass with what some of his plans will mean for me...but I believe he has his heart in the right place, in working for the interests of the people of this nation. And I believe that his more inclusive approach to statesmanship and policy making is long overdue.
 
Old 04-20-2008   #42 (permalink)
StapledShut is offline

Yeh, it was obvious enough that you were endorsing the electoral college system. My point was that the only reason Hillary should be winning is because of a jacked up system.

We're the same age? I'm 24, yours says 57.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddie53 View Post
You make some valid points there.

It is time to seriously consider another way to elect our president than the system we are using.

I hope you realize that as I explained the electoral college system, I was endorsing it. It still bothers me that Gore had more votes than Bush but the Supreme Court using the Electoral College system was able to but Bush in office instead of Gore.

We are the same age. I hope we see this change within our livetime.
 
Old 04-20-2008   #43 (permalink)
senor rubirosa is offline

Quote:
Originally Posted by StapledShut View Post
Yeh, it was obvious enough that you were endorsing the electoral college system. My point was that the only reason Hillary should be winning is because of a jacked up system.

We're the same age? I'm 24, yours says 57.
I'm sure Freddie meant to say he was NOT endorsing the elctoral college system.
It's not you but midlifebear who is Freddie's age.
I'm sure he meant to quote mlb's post, which touched at some length on the Electoral College ... and grabbed yours instead.
 
Old 04-20-2008   #44 (permalink)
faceking is offline

what next.. the popular vote argument...
 
Old 04-20-2008   #45 (permalink)
faceking is offline

Quote:
Originally Posted by chizz View Post
I think McCain will do fine answering those 3am phone calls. He'll be up anyway at that hour trying to pee. :D

(credit to Bill Maher for that one)
bill maher stole it from dennis miller...
 

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