Is bathing with ya kids abnormal?

FuzzyKen · 05-13-2008

I think that in the United States we are too prone to sexualizing non sexual things. An act of two males urinating is not a sexual act. It is an act of eliminating toxins from the body.

In many cultures you can go into a "bath-house" and be bathed by an attnendant of either the same or opposite sex. The idea is a pleasant and comfortable cleansing and the idea is not a sexual encounter.

In rest homes or residential care facilities or stroke recovery centers millions of people no longer capable of bathing themselves are bathed by others. A person at age 90 or more is still capable of sexual thought and if they do not suffer from dementia they can sometimes be capable of a great deal more.

I have a friend who was one of the few unfortunate men to suffer a stroke while on a transcontinental United States air flight he was at the time 40 years old. His thought is unchanged, he can reproduce and his genitals operate just fine. He cannot however bathe himself because of paralysis on the one side.

We have too many situations where we try to hide our bodies. I think a situation where children are aware that both Mommy and Daddy look a little different than they do because they are adults is not a bad thing. Growing up developing and changing is part of life and we could not stop it if we wanted to.

Morality is not what is seen but what is done based on that view.

Some may not agree with me and come up with all kinds of puritanical rules. There are of course exceptions and some public places where the environment cannot be controlled by the parent would fall into this category.

It has to be an individual judgment call based on the safety of the child in question.

I at one time traveled extensively in Recreational Vehicles and used many KOA's across this country. This started with my parents in the 1960's and continued into my own adulthood. I can't even count the number of times I was in a public shower with other males of substantially variable ages. At no time did I consider that a negative.

If I had been traveling with a daughter I would have substantially upgraded the RV to one that had a shower simply because I could not protect my daughter. The same would be true of a Mother driving or traveling with a younger son.

Don't make a problem unless there is one.....

Freddie53 · 05-13-2008

I will respond inline with bold blue.

[quote=Phil Ayesho;1474884]THis tactic in debate is called a "Straw Man"... rather than actually refute or address my point, you distort or falsely 're-define' my point to the argument you feel you CAN counter.

I'll not discuss the "Straw Man" tactic as you call it in general terms. Rather I will take point by point what you say and address it.

I will make this observation. Both you and I and probably everyone else will bring to this discussion all that they have been taught and have experienced.

POINT ONE: (This is not in response to the "Straw Man" tactic. It is my first point in response to ALL that has been posted.

My previous post was an attempt to state from the child's point of view that children themselves have great variances in what they believe is morally right and wrong, what they believe is appropriate and inappropriate, and how they personally feel about certain situations.

I may believe that something is morally OK , nothing wrong with it, and also believe that it is appropriate action or situation. By appropriate, it is appropriate to remove all you clothes to take a bath or shower. It would not be appropriate to decide to stand there and remove all your clothes during a funeral.

At the same time, I or in this case children may just not be comfortable themselves with a certain situation. So while there may or may not be anything wrong with mom or dad being present during a bath, if the child wants privacy and is capable of taking a bath without being supervised, that privacy should be granted whether the child is four or fourteen.

I believe the latter is something we both would agree.

POINT TWO:

A major point has come out in this discussion which bears much thought. And this is related to what you addressed later about the difference in a parent and a child sleeping separately and the family sleeping together.

That is approximaty factor. I did not take this into account at all in earlier posts. A father and four year old daughter both swimming in the family swimming pool (real pool, not a wading pool.) and being in the nude in a small bath tub. I did not take this factor into account until others did and I recognized it. In the typical modern bath tubs I have seen, the space is small enough that certain body alignments are almost impossible to avoid. By age four, an adult can't lay in the tub and hold up the child like we can do when the child is an infant. There is difficult for the adult to lay in the tub without the child having to lay as well bringing the sexual organs into contact. RED FLAG! RED FLAG!

That is not what I said at all. I said that when a male parent SEEKS nude, private time with a child ( of either gender) that it bears some SCRUTINY.
If that male parent is NOT the biological father... then it bears actual investigation.

You have some valid points here. I don't completely agree with part of it. Certainly when any adult SEEKS nude and PRIVATE time with a child, that is a red flag. The two key words are SEEK and PRIVATE. As a teacher, I avoided any personal contact with a student unless it was in a very public setting. I was an elementary teacher. Elementary students love to hug the teacher. Fine if it is out in the open. Never in a private situation. If I had to give help on an assignment during recess and only one student had to stay in, there was a table within a few feet of the door. I sat on one side and the child on the other with both of our bodies in full view of the hall way. There are steps we need to take to avoid being accused.

THE WORD PRIVATE is the most telling. It is easier in most cases to spot a desire on the part of an adult to make sure it is going to be a PRIVATE setting than it is to prove that the adult is SEEKing the nude situation. Children can be manipulated to make it appear that it is the child that wants to swim in the nude or take the bath in the nude.

I said that when a male parent SEEKS nude, private time with a child ( of either gender) that it bears some SCRUTINY.

Why limit this scrutiny to only males? Females are guilty of child abuse as well. It usually comes in different forms than it does with men. There are cases where a mother never actually sexually abused her son, but she wouldn't let him grow up either, insisting on helping him take a bath, checking all body parts for cleanliness way past the age that should be done. There are cases of men who are really screwed up from female dominance. A mother who is still coming into the bathroom to supervise her 17 year old son's bath, helping him get dressed, picking out all his clothes for him. Add to that doing everything for him including washing his clothes, cleaning up his room, not ever letting him help with the dishes or cooking.

And in some cases I know of boys were affected as adults because there moms insisted on sleeping with them every time the mom and dad got into a fight. According to these men, this created real issues especially during the time of puberty. The father and son become almost enemies because emotionally mom goes to the son instead of the father when the mother is mad at dad. There is no sexual contact. There is nothing on the part of the mother than appears sexual at all. But the sexual overtones are overwhelming. Yet, no court would convict such a mother for child abuse much less sexual child abuse.

I do know what I am talking about here. I have seen it twice in my own family. Thank God I was not the son whose adult life has been completely a mess coming from childhood. I know all to well the facts. Much of it I witnessed my self.

That is why I cringe when I read only men being singled out. I know that mothers can abuse their children usually in different ways than fathers do.

There is a difference in a familial atmosphere of casual nudity... and a man taking his daughter into a shower.

I believe that everyone speaking on the issue of a man taking his daughter into a home shower. And it isn't much different if it is a son.

There is a difference between a family sleeping together... and the father sleeping separately with his daughter.

And, really, don't pretend you don't know there is a difference.

I don't remember ever pretending that I didn't know the difference in the way you have stated that.

However, how do you define a family sleeping together - A daughter who has a horrible ear ache and wants daddy to sleep with her in her room. The door to her bedroom is left open. The door to the parents' bedroom is left open. Mom can come in at any time without warning. --- I would consider this a family situation.

However, there is this family vacation and the family gets a room with double beds. There are two children, a boy and a girl. If the boy and girl are very young they could sleep together and Mom and Dad sleep together. Or Dad and son and Mom and daughter. That would be the norm. I am not saying that the father and daughter and the mom and son arrangement is wrong, but I would want to know why that was the arrangement. Perhaps the son is the youngest and insisted on sleeping with mom. etc. The latter case would raise my eyebrows.

It really would get my attention if both the boy and girl are in their teens and the father and daughter slept in one room and the mom and the son slept in the other if they had two rooms. That would even be more true if both rooms only had one bed.

(Continued next post.)

Freddie53 · 05-13-2008

(Continued)

Try reading up on sexual molestation statistics... it will open your eyes as to which gender poses the greater risk.

Yes, that is what the statistics say all right. But consider that if a 24 year old female school teacher has sex with a 14 year old male student, that boy is going to be a hero in the eyes of many. In the last few years, the statistics are that when it involves sex between an adult and a minor teen that it is about the same now. The change is now the 24 year old female teacher is considered a child predator. In days gone by, the 24 year old female teacher was considered the victim even though she initiated the encounter.

For younger children, women pose a great risk for abusing children as well as men. There is a difference in how it is done. It is more overtly sexual with the men than with women. Some women do great emotional abuse to boys. Emotional abuse is at the heart of sexual abuse. It is the abuse to the emotions of the child where sexual abuse does the most damage. Feelings of guilt, confusion. loss of self-esteem and the list goes on.

It would be lovely and sweet to "believe" that we are all the same....but it would be naive and irresponsible, too.

The vast majority of violent and sexual crime is committed by men. It is well established that this is largely due to the effects of testosterone...

You are correct that the majority of violent crimes are committed by men. So that is going to include sexual crime as well. Are there statistics that show whether a father taking a bath with his son or daughter increase or decrease the rate of those violent crimes.

I can answer that. No there are no documented statistics concerning the percentage of men who commit violent and sexual crime who have taken a bath with thier child and those who haven't.

There are perceptions though.

Testosterone. It does tend to make people with a higher rate of testosterone being more aggressive than those with a lower rate of testosterone. in general, men have more testosterone than women do. Women also have testosterone produced naturally by their bodies. Women who appear to have a higher level to teststerone than what appears average for women also appear more aggressive.

The word aggressive is a descriptive term that is not as loaded as violent. Most men are more aggressive than women. I wouldn't then say that as a result the men will also be violent. Being violent is a choice made by the brain. Being aggressive is a part of a person's make up. There is a substantial different between being just aggressive and being violent.

Some women are violent, but appear passive showing no outward signs of aggression.

I am not anti women at all. I do recognize that they are human though and have the capacity to commit crimes just like men.

Children are blessed if they have both a loving mother and loving father who together raise the child.

While less concerned with mother's being naked with their children, I am still uneasy with any parent pressing naked time on their child. Most children express a wish for personal privacy at the point where they are becoming aware of gender differences. This is natural.

I addressed this at the beginning of my post. I couldn't agree with you more. You did wisely use the word most. Too many people use words like all. All would not be true. There are those children who for whatever reason are not modest in the least at any age. Most children do become modest about the time puberty kicks in. Parents should show them the respect they ask for.

Parental pressure can dismiss this need on the part of the child, forcing a parent's ideology on the child's natural tendencies.

Precisely my point earlier. It appears to me that mothers are more able to successfully pressure their children to do things the children don't want to do. One reason is that fathers are more aggressive and are more vocal about what it is they want the child or teen to do. Mothers are more "silently" manipulative. Usually with fathers this manipulation is much more obvious to the child than it is with the mother.
As I said, even when the nude contact is perfectly innocent... the child's brain is going thru a phase of sexual wiring... It IS possible to screw up your children even with the best of intentions. ( especially with the best of intentions )

Again, mothers can even be more guilty of this with their sons and with the best of intentions. Mothers really don't need to clean or check to make sure their 17 year old's penis foreskin unless the boy is really that incapacitated. As a child, it wasn't my mother but aunts who with the best of intentions wanted to check to see if I had cleaned my ears etc. At age 12 I was insulted. I know they meant well. This "best of intentions" situation is much more apt involve a mother instead of a father. Fathers are most likely to react with a request for son to clean his penis because mom is on a trip with, "Damn son, you are 10 years old. You don't know how to cean your penis yet? You had better find a way because I am not doing it for you."

In almost all human societies, female children are separated from adult males.
This cultural more did not evolve and persist accidentally... its important to human survival and healthy human societies.

The problem is with your reading comprehension.
I was responding to someone ELSE saying that they bathed with their children.

I was purposely pointing out that a mother BATHING with her son is NOT the same as a daughter SHOWERING with her father.

In other words, I was pointing out to another poster that their comparison of the two as similar was invalid.

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with your explanation. Since we are discussing debate points. Your point would have been clearer if you had only one variable in your statement. There is a difference in a father bathing with his young son and taking a shower in most home showers. Of course that would be different in a large communal shower, but that is a different setting. At home, we don't want to put the child's face within inches of either parent's private area. A twelve year old son who is at least five feet tall doesn't present near the problem with the eye and mouth closeness to dad's penis.

While I would be less nervous about a father bathing with a daughter.... I would still be more nervous than with a mother bathing with her son...

The critical parameter is AGE.

Under no circumstances should a father be in a shower stall with a 2 or 3 year old daughter, simply because, innocent or not, it puts his penis in her face.
Sorry... I don't think that is appropriate.

But I think a father bathing with his 2 or 3 year old daughter is just fine.

However... if when the child gets to be 6 or 7 or 8... it is LESS fine to even be bathing with the child.

Once again. IF you are paying attention to the CHILD's feedback... children will let you know when it is inappropriate for you to be cavorting naked with them.

FOR THERE TO HAVE BEEN SUCH STRONG STATEMENTS AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS POST, IT IS IRONIC THAT AS YOU MAKE YOUR FINAL CLOSING POINTS, THEY COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY ME.

The whole problem is about prior knowledge and trigger words and phrases. Sometimes two people who agree will get off to a bad start over a trigger word or phrase. We bring to the table our past experiences or experiences of our family. The baggage we bring to the table can be so heavy we can't comprehend the situation correctly.

What I keep hearing is folks who have this "ISSUE" trying to foist their unproven solution onto the psyches of their children.

But then, just to be clear... I think taking your kids to sunday school is just as bad. Borderline child abuse.

Definitely off topic here. Depends on whose Sunday School we are talking about. They aren't all the same.
How about we simply raise the child to be healthy, educated and capable of making their own choices, rather than indoctrinating them with our pet peeves?

I don't think we can raise our children without them being fully aware of our pet pees, beliefs, etc. It just can't happen.

[/quote]

Freddie53 · 05-13-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason_els

My argument has nothing to do with parents or doctors addressing medical emergencies and if my kid has injured genitals he or she is going to see the most available doctor who is most competent to treat that injury.

I'm uncomfortable exposing my genitals to female nurses and doctors but I do it if it's necessary for treatment.

When I said, "sex ed class," I was referring to a father bringing his daughter into the men's changing room specifically to see male genitals. Same deal with a woman bringing her son into the women's changing room. I was not referring to your school instruction.

As to the worry of false allegations, I was more concerned about the parent mistaking a look of surprise or shock for some kind of salacious look; a parent thinking that perhaps an adult is purposefully making him or herself overly conspicuous in order to expose themselves to the child; comments from other adults about the child being taken the wrong way; etc.

True story: I went to a gym I frequented and after my workout threw on my towel and went into the sauna for a good sweat. I walked right in the door and in there was a father with his two young sons who appeared to be around 7 or 8 years old. He and the kids were wearing swim trunks in the sauna. Everyone else was wearing their towels. I had never seen anyone in this sauna wear a towel before and immediately I became uncomfortable because if I did remove my towel I thought the father might think I was acting lewdly in front of the kids. Apparently everyone else thought so too. I felt so uncomfortable thinking of all the possible ways this could unfairly compromise me that I got up and left after less than a minute. I actually would have been slightly MORE comfortable if the kids had been nude, but even then that raises some issues as I once was in a sauna with a young boy who pointed at my penis and said, "His penis looks just like mine!," because I'm very small and retracted when I'm flaccid. I was mortified, the father apologized, and I chalked it up to, "shit happens."

I like the idea of family changing rooms and if a parent or kid isn't comfortable with one or another parent changing with them then don't take the kids into that kind of a situation! It's simple as that. Work out these issues before you decide to go to the water park/gym/public pool.

Jason, you and I can work around a lot of issues. But your true story is the hardest one presented so far in this thread. And that is in a locker room setting where the guys are in the nude at what point do you say there is an age that can't be there. You didn't suggest that the boys be barred from being there. Instead you left.

At my age, an 18 or 19 year old might cause the same reaction to me. We are dealing here will fealings, not logic.

Eighteen year old guys going into the sauna at a time when most of the older men aren't there do the same thing you did and bolt out when a man in his sixties comes into the sauna that is filled witih college age guys.

I don't have an answer for the age problem which in the case of the boys being about seven and with their dad. And that is the key there, with their dad.

If I owned a sauna, I would definitely research the effects of a sauna on different ages and health situations. It may be that a sauna is not healthy for a child under a certain age.

My instincts are that if this were a private club and not a non profit YMCA type of facility, I would consider having a "no one allowed under the age of ____" Probably age 12 for the sauna.
But then if it were a private facility owned by me, I would have to consider that profit margin. A private club where 80 percent of the paying members are young, I couldn't afford chasing the fathers and their young sons out of the sauna as they might take their monthy dues right with them over to that other facility where there are no age requirements.

I also have a retractable penis. It is average erect. When very cold, it wants to retract into hiding. I understand exactly how you felt in that situation.

As I wrote in another post on this thread, the baggage we bring with us really shows up in certain situations. This is one of those situations. Nothing bares our soul quite like nudity can.

I'm glad to know that the more we discuss this, the less our differences really are. As I said, some sentences and phrases to all of us carry a certain baggage regardless of the subject at hand or any things else.