If men had babies

Mme Zora, of course you and I both know it's easier to take a hard-line stance on this kind of issue if it is someone ELSE'S body and life you are talking about.

My suggestion to the "pro-lifers" is this: Until you are ready to provide all the medical pre-natal care for a woman who is pregnant, but does not want to be, and willing to adopt any and all children born to someone who does not want to be a parent, then butt out. Don't picket or bomb the clinic, simply offer to pay all the medical expenses and adopt the babies. That one usually gets me into the receiving end of a tirade.

Majority of Women are Pro-Life

Despite claims to the contrary by the media and pro-abortion groups, the second poll in the last three months has confirmed that a majority of women are pro-life. When the national crisis pregnancy organization Care Net wanted a poll on women's views about ultrasound legislation in Congress, they also asked their pollsters to also survey women's attitudes on abortion.

In 2001, when The Polling Company asked female registered voters to describe their views regarding abortion, a slight plurality (48% vs. 43% pro-life) indicated they supported abortion. Only two years later, a majority of women are pro-life.

In their latest poll, 54 percent of women selected one of three different pro-life views opposing all or almost all abortions. Only 39 percent backed abortion. The results are similar to those found in a poll conducted by a pro-abortion group earlier this year.

In June, the Center for the Advancement of Women released the results of a poll showing that 51 percent of women took a pro-life position. Their poll also found that keeping abortion legal was the next to last most important priority for women as compared with other public policy issues.

In the new poll from the Polling Company, Republican women were more likely than Democrats (68% vs. 43%) to identify themselves as "pro-life." A majority (57%) of self-identified Independent women also take a "pro-life" stance.

Hispanic women were more likely to be pro-life, and some 63 percent said they opposed all or most abortions. Married women (59%) were also more likely to be pro-life.

Women's views on abortions also varied by region. The New England and Pacific regions emerged as the least pro-life (33% and 41% respectively), whereas the Mountain and East South Central regions (65% and 71% pro-life, respectively) were most opposed to abortion.

Remarkably, 18-24 year olds (63%) were the most pro-life of any age group other than 65-74 year olds (65% pro-life), and 25-34 year olds were the only group that was not a majority pro-life.

http://www.aclife.org/about_us/newsl...s03-10-17.html

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HappyHammer1977 @ Nov 7 2005, 06:18 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Obvoius statement of the day...if men had babies in the same way women do, we'd be..umm...women! We'd have all the emotions, all the hormones...we'd go through exactly the same thing. Or am I being too pedantic?!
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I find it strange that so few souls have managed to grasp the point of this exercise. It's not to argue about physiology, and whether having a baby would change your sex... The message was pretty clearly outlined...

If men, in their current anatomical state, were the sex assigned to bear children, how would it affect the laws concerning abortion?

I'm inclined to agree that abortion wouldn't be such a social taboo, and wouldn't be constantly under the threat of being made illegal. Having a child does change your entire life, and being told by some higher authority that you aren't allowed to make the decision for yourself as to whether or not you can terminate a pregnancy is fucking insane, and I'm sure men would be outraged if that was a reality for them.

I believe Madame Z wanted the pro-life males in the audience to honestly consider what it would be like if every time they fucked, they were in danger of having their life thrown into upheaval. I guarantee not every person says to themselves, "Now this decision could affect my entire life. Do I have enough money to afford a child if one is conceived due to my actions? Do I have a way to care for a child? Will my job be accomodating and understanding when I have to take time off to have this baby?" etc., etc. every time they want to get laid. I know that's not my situation, and I am female. When I want to get laid, I'm thinking, "I want to get laid." I try my best to prevent pregnancy in the first place, but everyone fucks up sometimes, and birth control can fail. That's just life. No one's perfect, no birth control method is perfect. So it's pretty unfair to just tell women not to fuck if they don't want kids, and that abortion is never morally justified and therefore should be illegal becauseIsayso.

As a complete sidenote, can we, as a community, get over the word "pedantic"? The charm has worn off. It's becoming the Godwin's law of LPSG (for me, at least). When I read the word, all I can think is, "Gee, you must've seen someone else use that in an earlier post and thought it sounded cool, huh?".

Here are some synonyms: formalistic, donnish, rigid, priggish, abstruse, arid, didactic, pompous, punctilious, nitpicking, sententious, erudite, fussy, and doctrinaire. (Some I looked up, some are personal favorites... I hope I've given enough examples that people might think twice before simply relying on a buzzword.)

...Before anyone even mentions it, I know what a shining example of the word in question this very rant is. The irony is not lost on me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(absinthium @ Nov 7 2005, 11:49 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I believe Madame Z wanted the pro-life males in the audience to honestly consider what it would be like if every time they fucked, they were in danger of having their life thrown into upheaval. I guarantee not every person says to themselves, "Now this decision could affect my entire life. Do I have enough money to afford a child if one is conceived due to my actions? Do I have a way to care for a child? Will my job be accomodating and understanding when I have to take time off to have this baby?" etc., etc. every time they want to get laid. I know that's not my situation, and I am female. When I want to get laid, I'm thinking, "I want to get laid." I try my best to prevent pregnancy in the first place, but everyone fucks up sometimes, and birth control can fail. That's just life. No one's perfect, no birth control method is perfect. So it's pretty unfair to just tell women not to fuck if they don't want kids, and that abortion is never morally justified and therefore should be illegal becauseIsayso.
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Ah, not to mention that if a pregnancy does occur, the man can simply walk away... or at the very worst, be labelled a "deadbeat dad." If a woman simply walks away, (of course, that would have to be after birth) then she is a criminal of the worst sort.

In some cases, if it was just a casual fuck, the man & woman may not even know each others' names. The man can fuck, squirt, and leave, and never have to think about it again. His "cum receptacle" does not have that option. And by the way, yes, it does take two to make a baby. If the man also carried half of the physiological responsiblilty of the gestation and birth, I'm sure the laws and perceptions would be different.

Hmm, someone calls you a deadbeat dad, and pinches off a small portion of your paycheck.... someone calls you an unbalanced, unfit mother and throws you in jail... hmmm, which is worse? tough decision, huh?

I'm guessing that in the interest of equal rights abortion would be illegal. The female parent would demand the same say so as the male.

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/iloveyou.gif[/img] GottaBigOne [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/iloveyou.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yum.gif[/img]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GottaBigOne @ Nov 7 2005, 10:32 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I think the implication here is that the only reason men are pro-life is because they don't understand how hard being pregnant is. I am pro-choice, so i don't think the hypothetical situation applies to me but I will say this, I would do everything to avoid a pregnancy simply because of the morning sickness. I am deathly afraid of vomiting and hence would probably never have kids. Having the abortion option open wouldn't mean a thing to me because morning sickness is one of the earliest symptoms of pregnancy, the damamge would have already been done.
For the record; I haven't thrown up in eight years, that must be a world record or something.

But madam I will pose this question to you: What about women who are pro-life?? Obviously people aren't only pro-life because they dont understand pregnant women, (which is what your implying by saying that the discussion would vanish if men had babies)they actually do have reasons why they feel its wrong and its not just an appeal to some sort of emotion, or lack of compassion. Its based on the belief that your body does not belong to you, but to someone/anyone else who wishes to force their desires on you. thats the notion you hae to attack in order to defend your right to your body.
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GBO, I do realise that most pro-lifers are women, but this particular discussion was directed towards men and legalities. We live in a world where the majority of lawmakers are still men and it is therefore my opinion that their opinions carry more weight.

I was actually asking that if babies had to come out of your penis, rip it to shreads and leave it unusable for several weeks until it healed, leave you utterly sick and destroyed while you had a new baby to care for that needed immediate attention despite your own condition, would anyone feel differently about pregnancy or abortion than they do now.

What if you didn't have several thousand dollars to get your tubes tied? Here's one for the funny papers- after I had Julianna, I asked my doctors on the delivery table to tie my tubes. I had always known that I only wanted one child, and once I saw her healthy and beautiful (a child MUCH wanted and planned for) I was satisfied with this portion of my life being complete. They refused to do so because I didn't meet the criteria of being either 30 or already having three kids!!!!!!! Yes, they refused a surgery I could pay for and wanted because they said I wasn't *capable* of making that decision at 22.

I can appreciate what you're saying about hating vomitting, I'm no big fan either. Luckily I was spared that with her, but it's usually part of the process. I know that you're pro-choice already, but what I'm really asking is not about the rights of women, but if you feel that the laws and societal views would be different if it were men, as they are, who had the responsibility for childbirth rather than women.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KinkGuy @ Nov 7 2005, 12:36 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
If men had to give birth, one or all of the following situations would probably occur:

1) Abortions would be paid for by the Government.
2) Birth control would be available to every man in the country.
3) Comprehensive sex education would be taught in the schools.
4) Free condoms would be available EVERYWHERE.
5) All births would be performed under general anesthesia.

And in all seriousness? If I had to contemplate the possibility of childbirth, I would probably never have sex again.
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Kinkguy, in all seriousness, I think all five of your outlined points would occur, and that was the exact point of the discussion. Men, being the majority of lawmakers would always protect their own interests, and the group that would arise to protest would be labeled "fringe" and jeered at.

Never have sex again? Ha! try it for a month as see how far you get! Not a viable solution for decades or a lifetime.

It is actually my position that society, both male and female, is opposed to the concept of women being able to share the right of having sex for pleasure. While this is viewed as acceptable for men, women are still seen as whores and baby-killers. I guess it's like Christians for me, if a person is a Christian and lives a Christian life, I have no problem with them having a different opinion than mine, but if they only use it to put others down and really don't even practise what they preach, I have a BIG problem with it. When women are pro-life and they have NEVER had an abortion, I can't help but acknowledge their right to their feelings, but a man can never fall into that category so he can only "practise what he preaches" by accepting full responsibility for the unwanted child by:

1) Taking full financial responsibility for the woman's medical bills
2) Supporting her fully while she is off work, no matter how long her doctor recommends
3) Actively help to care for her during the pregnancy or arrange for someone else to do it
4) Relieves her of any and all obligation toward the baby she doean't want
5) After she is recuperated, makes sure that her life is in the same place it was prior to the birth, and leaves her completely out of any future issues.

If all that were the case, I'd consider having an unwanted child if my partner desperately wanted to be a father that badly. Anyone feeling queasy yet? I don't think the issue is hardly EVER about the rights of fatherhood, I have never heard of such a case. While they may exist, it is in the extreme minority. The issue is supposedly about the rights of the unborn, and I'd really like to see how much men would care about the unborn if THEY had to bear them.

"Men, being the majority of lawmakers would always protect their own interests"




One would think so. Reality, unfortunately, doesn't bear this out.

In instances of divorce where the father is awarded custody, the mother is generally required to provide child support at a much lesser rate than would a male - if at all.

And in cases of statutory rape, female perpetrators get the equivalent of a slap on the wrist relative to the punishments handed down to men.

I am anti-abortion and I'm sure carrying an unplanned baby wouldn't change that but I am unusually paternal for a man (one baby girl)

I do agree though that of the men that I know well, not many of them would feel the same as me. I think a lot of male opposition to abortion would go if both sexes could get pregnant and rates of abortion in men would be higher than in women

Thanks Dorset, I appreciate your candor. Although it may not change things for you personally, I respect your ability to get the point of what I was saying.