An ugly trend

i dislike racism and prejudice, but i suffer a bit of it myself, i am prejudice against idiots and those trying to reverse the forward evolution of global society.
peace to all.

Honestly, I am absolutely certain you are correct. I have been to thirty-nine states, and four countries, but I haven't experienced what you have. I wouldn't take anyone my age seriously if I were in your position, and I appreciate that you and the rest of the board has been so kind to me. :)
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You certainly haven't merited kindness, you have been rude and egotistical, which is pretty normal for a 14 year old, but I thought all along I was talking to an adult. Had I known you were a child, I would have taken a pass.

In your VAST experience, have you held a job, applied for a mortgage, tried to purchase a car? You have no idea what people who experience racial prejudice go through, and it shows through your lack of empathy. I was 14 once, you have never been 42. I know what it feels like for adults not to take you seriously, but at 14 you don't fully understand why. Regardless of how mature you are "for your age", you simply cannot compensate for some things that life experience will teach you. I know you won't agree with this, because at 14 you think you know everything- I did too. At 21 I figured out I had a long way to go, and now in my 40's I realise that no human being will ever make it beyond the most fundamental understanding of the nature of things. I expect to be completely retarded by 60.

A long time ago I swore off engaging in discourse about racial prejudice because it's like arguing about the Easter Bunny. There is no way to intelligently defend a concept which is innately stupid. I gave you the benefit of the doubt because at first you appeared not to be racist, but just suggesting a theory. Later it became clearer that you do in fact think you're better than others by little comments like "well, you won't have to worry about me hitting on you" when you found out I wasn't white. I'm not a pedophile anyway, so thanks! The concept of racism is based in a belief that certain races are superior to others. You can site studies all day and all night, but if they prove that point, they have been conducted by psychopaths who are willing to invest time and money into proving erroneous information. I have absolutley no interest in either filling my mind with nonsense or indulging to whims of children in this area. You have already found that you are all alone here in this, which is no surprise to me. If you think it will earn you respect amoung this group of highly intellectually gifted people to spew out mentally stunted garbage like racism, then have at it and see how long your welcome here lasts. I am deeply resentful at the amount of time I wasted on you, I wish Mark would make it mandatory for members to fill out their profiles before they post so we'll know when we're dealing with the kinder-crew. The fact that you are so very haughty about your extremely limited life experience is evidence of your youth. Life is sure going to kick you in the balls, and hard!

By the way, I started college the summer after my sophomore year of high school, have four years in Psychology, worked in a rape crisis center, Managed cemeteries and counselled grieving families, hired , fired and trained sales crews, counselled people on alcoholism, worked with attourneys on EEO claims, acted as a union steward while at the Post office, run my own business for fifteen yrears while holding other jobs, raised a child alone, made car payments, travelled more than you, so gee- you'll excuse me if I find your huge life experience laughable.

Madame Zora, you make my day so much better with you posts. Everything you say is just golden!

Madame Zora: That’s one busy, interesting life- perhaps it helps to explain why you are so engaging to so many of us. Thanks.

I grew up belonging to the upper middle class in the deep south. My father taught me that no matter how much my peers may beg to differ, I was no better than anyone else based on the color of my skin. I believe this emphatically.

That having been said, I still consider myself a racist. It's a matter of semantics. To me racism is merely admitting that certain ethnic groups have some things in common different from others. Not better, just different.

If we were to randomly select 100 people from Iceland and 100 from Japan and mix them up into one big group, it would probably be pretty easy to separate them (racially) with a high degree of accuracy. Is one group superior? Not to my way of thinking. But there are general differences in appearance, diet, etc. To pretend otherwise is intellectually dishonest. Some of you will probably argue that the only difference is in appearance. That under the skin we are all exactly the same. I find that a bit of a stretch.

The real enemies are prejudice and bigotry. These traits lead people to prejudge individuals based on their ethnicity or race. That's a lot of bullshit - since individual variation within groups runs the gamut.

Political correctness has taken us to the point where saying the obvious brands one a pariah. Call me Winston Smith. Burn me for my thoughtcrime.

But there is a dictionary definition of racism: the doctrine or teaching, without scientific support, that claims to find racial differences in character, intelligence, etc., that asserts the superority of one race over another or others, and that seeks to maintain the purity of a race or the races. [Emphasis added.] That's not you, Shelby. Racism is a form of discrimination and prejudice, not just the recognition of differences. You're no racist, so you don't need to lump yourself with the David Dukes and George Wallaces of the world.

But there is a dictionary definition of racism: the doctrine or teaching, without scientific support, that claims to find racial differences in character, intelligence, etc., that asserts the superority of one race over another or others, and that seeks to maintain the purity of a race or the races. [Emphasis added.] That's not you, Shelby. Racism is a form of discrimination and prejudice, not just the recognition of differences. You're no racist, so you don't need to lump yourself with the David Dukes and George Wallaces of the world.
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Guess I should have consulted my Webster's before spouting off. My rant was based on my percieved meaning and general disgust with uninformed political correctness. In this case it turns out i'm the one who was uninformed.

Demonizing words is a pet peeve of mine. For example it's ok to integrate software app's, but people must be desegregated.

As it is thanks for the clarification DMW :)

Shelby, I do understand what you're saying, and of course people are different in some ways. It speaks well of your family that you were raised to respect all people as being of equal value, that is a good gift. You weren't here last year when we went through this topic as a group in great detail, and some of my quickness to dismiss this topic is related to that. Several black men talked in depth about how damaging that particular stereotype is because most black men are average size, like everybody else. However, when all of society believes something so farfetched to the contrary, then all your prospective partners are expecting you to be hung like a donkey too. Since most are in fact average, they are made to feel inadequate more than the "average white guy". If we allow this misconception to continue, we (perhaps unknowingly) bring trauma and self-loathing to a group of people who gets shit on by society pretty regularly already, it seems unconcionably cruel to me.

There is a saying in Sanskrit, "Wisdom with compassion leads to enlightenment". To me, any bare data that is void of interest on it's social impact is unenlightened. Any data gathered with the intent of proving a certain set of facts will probably prove those facts, but that doesn't make it true. I have yet to find a penis size study that was NOT self-measured, even Kinsey who I believe is as close to accurate as it gets.

I started a thread on cock size and intelligence shortly after I joined here bacuse I was so impressed with the level of conversational discussion I found. I started asking guys privately if they knew their IQ scores. Some did, many didn't. The ones who self-reported were very much in keeping with their linguistic skills, and the others took an online IQ test I sent them to and emailed me the results. I have long been able to guess fairly close (within about 10 pts either way) a person's IQ by their written verbal skills, not just their sentence structure but also the subjects they find interesting, what they spend time thinking about, a lot of things go into it. There were no surprises in my "research". Now, this was as unoffcial as it gets, because I was only asking guys that I knew were smart and had a big dick! However, only about 2% of the population has an IQ over 130 and only about 2% of the population has a dick over 8'', so what would be the likelihood that I'd find over 100 men who had both in just a few days? Well, the problem is, that this site has set the bar pretty high for conversation, so many who feel they can't "keep up" gramatically won't post here, so we have some serious self-selection going on. Out of 11,000+ members, only about 300 post, so that's just over 2%! Of the posting members, less than half are actually hung, many are average and some are women. The level of intelligence revealed through writing does not vary from hung to average to women (I did ask or test a few from the other groups.) I dropped the theory because it was more for my amusement than anything else and it was clear that it was insulting to a lot of people who don't need that. My point is that I could have easily put together a compelling looking study and submitted it to a known institute on sex research had I been thus inclined and you might be reading about it today. That wouldn't make it factual, still only my opinion based on a small sampling.

My problem with racially biased information is not that they don't have any point at all, but that more often than not, it is collected for the purpose of proving the inferiority of one race compared to another. Even when it's supposedly a compliment, ie "black men are better at sports, have bigger dicks, are physically stronger" the VERY CLEAR implication socially is that they've got the better physique, but whites have the better brains. Now, I'm sure I've read more studies than almost anyone on this and I find them to be horrendously slanted and unfounded in anything realistic. We must always remember how very recently we started realising that insulting blacks was a bad thing! Many of these studies were done when it was a "commonly acccepted fact" that blacks were inferior. Well, there was a time when it was a "commonly accepted fact" that the world was flat- that still didn't make it true.

Discernment- use it or lose it. Weigh carefully what you choose to accept as fact. Gather data from as many varied sources as possible before making any kind of determination. Learn more, read more, love more. Use your briiliant minds and do not separate them from your hearts. We will find things closer to the truth in this manner.

MZ - as always, your words reveal high intelligence along with a deep empathy and understanding of the human condition.

I get it that certain stereotypes, concepts and/or buzzwords can cause some people emotional trauma. And I know that some level of discretion is necessary. But I hate it when past injustices make the mere mention of a
controversial subject taboo.

ps - I don't pretend to know where the proper balance should be struck.

hung_big: Sorry Chimera, but hun...I'm 15...and I have to step in.

If you think because you can throw a bunch of jargon at Jana and call youself her equal in anything than you better think again.

Buddy, I am 15 and I know how it is liked to be demeaned and patronized because of one's age. Age, I feel, isn't a good indicator of anything, because people are individuals and their intelligence and worldiness is based on what has happened in their life, not their age. Of course, age restricts some of it, but that's another thing all together.

You come off quite high and mighty on yourself. Like Jana said, she wouldn't put in a second thought had she known your age. But she did, of course, say that she had thought she was speaking to an adult - something to your credit.

But I will say this. You are not on par with her. She is wise beyond even her years.

Not to say you are not intelligent - far from it, but take yourself off the pedastal that you have obviously placed yourself on and take a listen to yourself. This is coming from somebody who is your peer and equal, not as a patronizing adult, treating you derrogitorially.

You are the type who give teenagers the bad stereotype that we are conceited and arrogant. Albeit, I'm guilty of it sometimes myself (I won't pretend like I'm not), but if there is one thing I hate more than even prejudice in this world is arrogance. Alas, look at what this has come to - an intelligent teenager, worthy of intillectual conversation and debate coming off as arrogant and ill-mannered. Chimera buddy - get over yourself.

I hope you aren't angry that a fourteen year-old is on par with your arguing skills. :D

I have experienced racism a lot by the way.
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Actually, I'm not. The reason I began talking to you in the first place is that I read some (but not all) of the threads in Etc where you and jonb were discussing genetics.
Believe me, your intellect I respect just fine. One doesn't have to be an adult to have a strongly developed brain, and you clearly do. The reason I was upset was because despite your obvious intelligence, you lack the practical application that living life will give you, thus broadening your perspective. It simply is not possible at that young of an age to be able to make sweeping social generalisations that hold any credibility because you just haven't experinced enough of the kinds of things the racism affects.
FWIW, I was also an early developer, so when I say "I've been where you are", I mean it. I also mean it when I say I know firsthand how completely annoying it is to be limited by things beyond your control, and your lack of life experience is just a result of on what day you happened to be born, been there too. Nonetheless, you are in fact 14 and have not done any of the things I referred to in my previous post, that doesn't make you less valuable as a person, but honestly it's like having a debate about a movie that one of us (you) hasn't seen yet. If you were arguing about a movie and discovered your friend hadn't seen it, you might feel the discussion had been useless too, that's how I feel now.

Also you failed to realise that being biracial, I find your theories PERSONALLY highly offensive, so there's no way on Earth I'm going to remain civil to you while you are being directly insulting to me. I also thought this showed an immense lack of maturity on your part, not to even recognise what an ass you were being. When I am calling someone out, I don't expect them to be gentle in responding, but I've learned that through experience. :D

hung_big: Cha, of course Chimera. Everyone loves ya! (well, at least I do :D)

Apology totally accepted. Just no more racist comments :D

And yes, you are intelligent

Chimera,

With great intelligence comes responsibility. I gathered early on that you liked to play the devil's advocate and exercise your skills of debate. But as Jana stated, as yet another "biracial" person, my very existence cried out against your ideologies. I wish you the best and look forward to hearing what other things you have to say about some of our less incindiary topics.

Naughty

I wouldn't pretend to know either, but I am wondering at this moment if I should be feeling a little slammed by the article you chose to use as your example. I won't get into the details of how I feel about that particular subject unless you tell me it was your intention to begin that discussion, but generally I try to decide where the balance is by trying to discern what purpose is served either way. FWIW, I hold the concept of "the people's right to know" to be complete hogwash!
Using your example, what general purpose is there of conducting a survey on why women score lower than men in math? If it is not for the purpose of discrimination, or justifying the forementioned, then what could it be? I won't deny that the evidence holds to the issue, but the reasons for that are varied. The problem I have is not so much that women be seen as the same as men (which is clearly NOT true!), but that the ones who can and do perform at the same level as men be afforded that opportunity. Sadly, there is still pervasive mysogyny throughout our society, and "facts" such as this serve to enforce a stereotype that is damaging to some. I have actually had male subordinates who were surprised that I didn't need their help doing simple math equasions in my head! It's disheartening to know that about half the population truly believes I am inferior to them based on my gender. Boy, do I ever love taking their money!
One of the great things about men seeing women as inferior is that they aren't afraid of me, and as a salesman, I use that to my advantage- they never see me coming even when I'm sticking my hand in their wallet.

Okay, so I couldn't keep my mouth shut (when do I ever?). I am completely against ANY standards being lowered to accomodate women, but once again, I believe strongly that women who can and do perform at the same level as men be afforded the same oportunity and pay. Like racism, many simply do not believe tha extent to which this affects a woman's life. I know a lot of white people who aren't racists personally, their friends aren't racists, and they simply can't get their minds around the idea that this is still a big deal, because they personally don't come into contact with it much (thank God for that type of ignorance!). Likewise, there are plenty of men on the workforce who treat women as equals in the important areas and they just can't imagine that it's all that tough out there for women, but I hope you'll believe me when I say I've done more fighting for my rights than just enjoying my happy day.

The implications of subtle "findings" are dangerous when taken out of context. I know that women score a bit lower than men in math on standardized tests, but when you take girls and boys with similar IQs, the math portions are not too dissimilar. There is no way to take societal impact out of the equasion and have the results remain meaningful. Studies have been done that reveal teachers tend to call on boys more in school, guidance counsellors tend to encourage boys more than girls to pursue math related fields, at the very least, these things would affect confidence, and how much impact could that have? Think about how that relates to sex- it can be a deal-breaker.

Stereotypes usually serve no useful purpose, IMHO. Stereotypes about beauty have women feeling we need to be 120 lbs with 36DD boobs and an ass like a 12 year old boy. Great job guys, now we're anorexic/bulemic, running to plastic surgeons for boob jobs and neither men or women even care if we have any intellectual value at all. Stereotypes against blacks ONLY serve to harm blacks, did you ever notice that these studies that go to show how white men are superior to everyone are ALWAYS conducted by.....um....White Men!! Woo-hoo, we have a winner! It has long been my personal contention, based on absolutely nothing but my personal opinion, that the world has paid dearly enough for white' guys' inferiority complexes.

Please believe me that no slam was intended.

The article (written by the female president of the center for equal opportunity) does mention that women score higher on verbal tests than men. And my experience in the business world leads me to conclude that communication skills are far more valuable than being able to handle integrals and derivatives - for what it's worth.