IQ and Voting

I have a very big mouth, and I love to use it- apply whatever inferences you may! lol. I think apathy is a resonable reaction to unreasonable circumstances. I know there's very little value in my vote, other than the feeling it gives me that I'm participating. I know very little about politics in the UK, but if it's anything like here, it's easy to feel "lost in the system". Perhaps it is my own illusion that I am voting for.....I too have given this a lot of thought.

I hate George Bush and everything he stands for. I will vote against him nomatter who runs to try to accomplish this goal. I find it humiliating to have a moron in the Whitehouse, it diminishes our image worldwide, as if we haven't done that to ourselves via the press with the whole Clinton scandal non-event. I want the right to bitch if that bastard gets re-elected, so that's what I'm buying with my vote.

Thanks for the stimulating and thought provoking conversation, here I thought I was just in for cheap thrills!! Big brains AND a big pecker? You're quite a package (?) Orcabomber!

Well, you learn something new everyday, Zora. :)

I dunno about US politics, it seems to be based too much on image, shouldn't it be based on who people think is actually better, then again, most people tend to be pretty shallow about this sort of thing.

That reminds me, speaking of IQs, in the Uk, the show "test the nation" was on, where they do a IQ test for people to play at home and find out what the score is.

I realy do not want to be reminded it's 23 or something. :wub:

The anger against Bush is rampant on this forum. I have a question for everyone: Do you hate the man, or the policies he stands for?

I find that although I do not see eye to eye with Bush, I definitely respect him in many ways. First of all, he stands up for what he believes in. Now, I will readily admit that it seems that he stands up for what his corporate backers believe in, but then again, that is EVERY politician. Not to mention, he does seem to have a sense of loyalty about him, which I also share. Lastly, He does seem to be strong in his faith, which is refreshing. (I am not endorsing a particular reason, just find it nice that our leaders believe in something greater than themselves).

Now I do disagree with SOME of his policies. Namely tax cuts (in a war, I believe in them in times of piece and prosperity) Underfunding key programs such as the no child left behind act, and his using Sept. 11 as a campaign ploy (he doesnt have to do that, I believe most remember his leadership during that time). I even disapprove of the WAY he is running the war on terror. I hated Saddam with a passion, but if he doesnt have WMDs....

Although I am a registered democrat, I am not certain yet who I am voting for. I feel closely aligned with Kerry, (and right now he has my vote) but I must admit I respect some of his qualities.

Ken

Javierdude22: I hate very few people, actually none. The word is too strong.

I just think Bush should be working the counter at Mc Donalds, and not be running a country with a history of manipulation and an internal mandate for it.

About loyalty, a dog is loyal as well, it doesnt make him a leader. He stands up for what he believes in, something I have heard WAY too often from Bush supporters. But did America ever stop to think what exactly it is he stands for? Without making things up, he stands for tax cuts for the rich, lies (Niger, WMDs), war (two), economic growth funded by a huge debt that will bite the US in the ass eventually, torture of prisoners (Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib), a total disregard for any international treaty (International Court, Kyoto, Geneva Conventions), lóóóng holidays on his ranch or summerhome, a country in ruins (Iraq), and a blind support for Israel.

I wouldnt wanna put that on my resume.

But obviously people see things differently, we are all unique. The pro-Bushies will turn it around which of course is not at all hard if you have a big imagination, low moral standards, and a touch of chauvinism to add on that.

I am not a hardcore liberal, not at all even, I am a liberal conservative Christian environmentalist and Bi (thats between us). So I don't automatically dislike any Republican or rightist politician there is.

Bush however is the first person I can really see NO added value in as leader of the (at the moment) most powerful country in the world. He lacks vision, ethics, and knowledge, he is a flagrant liar on countless things. My personal opinion, and everyone's entitled to their own.

Javier

Mr. Big Stuff asks: "Do you hate the man, or the policies he stands for? "

How could I hate someone that I do not know and has not injured either a friend or a member of my family?

On occasion, I have been know to criticize a Bush policy or position. ;) I opposed the Iraq War because there was no compelling danger to the safety of the U.S. I ridiculed the evidence for WMDs. I believed that the $1 trillion that we would spend on the war and reconstruction could be better spent on education, infastructure, science and technology, health care, etc. Since we made a mess of Iraq, I have supported the sums required to rebuild and to stablize the country.

Within the past month, I saw an ad saying that Dubya made America safer. How so? The Patriot Act allows the feds to throw you in the slammer without charges, conduct sneak-and-peek searches, and telephone taps without judicial review of cause/need. So I guess the mantra of the Justice Department is "We are here to protect you." Hmmp! The end run around the constitution and treaty obligations regarding human and civil rights by the retards in Justice and Defense have resulted in inflaming a couple of billion muslims and shaming most Americans. Do I think Americans will be fair game on travel overseas? You betcha!

jay

And that is completely fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is encouraged to attack his positions. (as you and javier did quite well I might add) I just am skeptical of the people, not necessarily on this board, that believe that Bush is Satan Incarnate (to quote pecker) I think those people have little to bring to the debate. In fact they hurt it. I am, however, consistent: I am equally skeptical of the Bush is Heaven-sent crowd. Logical debate over his policies are more than welcome.

Now on with it:

First, to Jay. I am not certain if the patriot act needs to be scrapped. Amended, yes. Scrapped prolly not. It came from sept. 11, meant to strenghthen our capabilites in crime/terror fighting. Maybe because my father is a cop, but some of those barriers were a hindrance to officers. I find more fault with the irresponsible manner in which the Patriot act was used, rather than the act itself. However, I fully recognize that abuses (such as the ones you outlined: slammer without charges, sneak peek etc.) will remain unless the power is curtailed a bit.

Has Dubya made us safer? With this Iraq mess...Definitely not. But the patriot act isnt really a problem, it can be a solution.


Lastly to Javier. Man you raised some excellent points. A while back I made a list of all the blunders the Bush Admin. had made (I was trying to keep up, It seems that there is a scandal or something every week) You hit the big ones. Taxes during war time? unheard of. Lies on intelligence, well I will give him the benefit of the doubt, provided he gets to the bottom of it....SOMEONE lied, and I want to know who...before the election. His Isolationism? I thought that died out 100 years ago. We can no longer shut out the rest of the world. (you would think a pres. would know that.) And those RIDICULOUSLY long vacations. (tho It would be nice...)

I do have one thing, however. The deficits deal. Do they REALLY matter? I dunno. On the one hand, it has been said that as long as it is manageaable (whatever the hell that means) then it is okay. Some say it doesnt matter at all, while others make it seem like the sky is falling because of it. Because there are so many varying opinions on it, I cannot blame him for sticking to his. (he just better be right)

If you have any insight into the Deficits (links, books, whatever) it would be GREATLY appreciated.

Ken

by the by, Loyalty is simply an admirable trait, one not possessed by many. NO, it doesnt qualify him to be a leader, but it sure as hell makes me respect him more.

The Nazis and the Japanese suicide bombers as well as today's terrorists are probably the loyalest kind of people you'll hear of nowadays, loyalty is a nuetral trait as far as I'm concerned, I'm sure the Ku Klux Klan are very "loyal" to the idea of wiping Orcabombers of the face of the earth.

At the same time, aren't doctors and nurses loyal to the needs of their patients?
Hmmm, there's food for thought.

As for Bush, well, you voted him in, as my brother's freind would say, "It's karputti, deal with it!"

At the end of the day, I don't hate Bush, but I don't hate Saddam either, nor do I hate Blair, in a democratic society (wink wink) you should be willing to accept what you're given, after all, you did vote them into power (well, if you're an American or Birtish citizen, but it goes for all world leaders you can vote for.

Javierdude22: I do have one thing, however. The deficits deal. Do they REALLY matter? I dunno. On the one hand, it has been said that as long as it is manageaable (whatever the hell that means) then it is okay. Some say it doesnt matter at all, while others make it seem like the sky is falling because of it. Because there are so many varying opinions on it, I cannot blame him for sticking to his. (he just better be right)

If you have any insight into the Deficits (links, books, whatever) it would be GREATLY appreciated.

Ken [/b][/quote]
LOLn Orca, the thing is that even though I don't have any voting rights in either the US or Britain, I feel more and more their policies breathing down my neck.
I would like to propose a 1/4th vote in the coming elections for each European.

Oh well...one can dream right?

About the deficit. I am not really an economist...wait, scratch that...I'm pretty clueless actually on hardcore economics, but I do know this deficit is not sustainable in the long run.

In once read an article that the US is running on Europe's savings account. Money doesnt automatically pop up from somewhere, it needs to be loaned from people who have it to spare. With all the hardships suffered in Europe (and a Jewish influence) we have learned to save up like there's no tomorrow. This is also probably the reason for our always slower groth than the US. At the same time our economic growth doesnt drop as fast as in the US either. Pro's and con's. The money we save in our banks the US lends to their consumers, companies, and government. I think Newsweek a year ago mentioned that 75% of the US debt is European funded. They hypothetically mentioned what would happen if somehow Europe would pull out its money, the bubble would pop. This will of course not happen (very soon). The US is still an economic superpower, but China and Russia are now getting very close to being the top-investment countries of European bankers. Things are shifting, albeit it'll take another 50-100 years to see actual changes happen.

Hm...I babbeling a lot, I might be wrong here and there ;)

Anywayz...in the short run I highly doubt a huge debt will have any grave effects on the US economy. A lower dollar (don't mind that, makes my coming holiday cheaper) maybe and a litlle more inflation. On the long run it just can't be good.

J

Well, the good news is they don't have Klansmen in Britain. They do have neo-fascists though.

As for the debt, if Bush keeps pissing "old" Europeans off, they just might refuse to lend the US money. And then foreign currency markets will be something other than a scam.

thingsteal: I know a lot of you "hate" Bush, but I don't see any love for Kerry or Nader in these posts.

I'm a registered independent, but I don't like John Kerry at all. I know some Republican types who started calling him a "gigolo" so I Googled around and damn if they're not right!

Kerry married his first wife in the 1970s. She had a whole bunch of money. They had some kids. She said if he got into national politics she would leave him. He ran for Senator and I think within a couple of years (early 80s) they were divorced. She had some mental problems at the time. So Kerry goes and dates a bunch of Hollywood celebrity types. He filed a financial disclosure in the early 90s where he stated assets between negative something and positive notverymuch. The dude was reduced to driving an old Dodge 600 ragtop and a VW Jetta in the early 90s. Then he met the Widow Heinz and they courted, he signed the pre-nup, and they got married. She won't release her taxes, but she "gave" him half interest in some million dollar painting and supposedly half interest in one of her zillion dollars homes in Boston which he was able to get a loan from to keep his campaign going early in the primaries. She's got a Gulfstream V jet that he tools around him and he rides a $8000 bicycle.

Plus there's this whole Vietnam thing, that book "The New Soldier" he's trying to keep suppressed, all those medals he won for scratches and knocking a fellow soldier out of his boat then going around and picking him back up.

His Senate career isn't that spectacular. Basically Ted Kennedy's understudy. Doesn't introduce legislation. He hasn't shown up for work in months but still collects his paycheck. He voted for the $87 zillion for troops before he voted against it. He could have stopped the ending of the extension of unemployment benefits with his vote, but didn't show up to cast it, then went out in the media and said how he would have cast it. What the fuck is that all about? That shit drives me crazy. That asshole should show up for work and cast his vote if he really believes in it.

There's a lot I don't like about Bush, but a few things I do like like some of the tax things for college students, eliminating the marriage penalty, stuff like that. I like some things about Nader and a few things I don't like. Nader doesn't really have a chance anyway. The Greens, the Libertarians, who gives a shit? No chance.

So I'm looking at the Democrats and about the only guys I can stand are maybe Lieberman or Edwards. Who do they nominate? That fucker Kerry. He seems like a condescending asshole. His wife is a real piece of work. I kind of like her. Foul mouth. Rich as fuck. Face-lifted and botoxed. But that John Kerry, he seems like such a girlyman, you know, he's all hen-pecked because of his wife's money. And he talks on both sides of every issue. I know Clinton pulled that stuff all the time, but Clinton was The Man as far as having charisma was concerned. Clinton wasn't hen-pecked because he didn't clearly didn't fuck his wife anymore, he just got it on the side. He should have just divorced that frosty bitch wife of his and gotten some rich poontang and retired.

Clinton was actually more of a Republican than he was a Democrat, except when it came to getting laid. Look at all the shit he signed when he was President, mostly stuff the Republicans in Congress sent to him. Clinton would sign just about anything, mostly because he would fuck just about anything. Look at all those bitches he groped and fucked and got blowjobs from. Couldn't he do any better than trailer park ho's? Maybe he had a small penis.

But John Kerry, you can see his rich wife whipping his naked ass and him just taking it. I don't think I want that kind of guy as President. Who else have I got to pick from? Nader, who's probably been intimate with his right hand for the past 60 years. Or Bush, who goes to bed at 9pm every night (hopefully to fuck the hell out of Laura, although I doubt it).

Maybe I just won't vote. Who gives a shit?

It's basically the lesser of two evils. As for Nader, even the Greens don't like him this time around.

Javierdude22: Thingsteal

I'm sorry, but your post proves me Americans, on average, are idiots when it comes to voting. I mean look at your post man. A 5 sentence paragraph is actually about politics, the rest of the 9 paragraphs are about Kerry´s sexlife or Clinton's!

Do Americans really not get laid enough for them to focus on their (future) president's sex life? Holy crap man, if I'd have to think about mý prime minister's sexlife I will go blind and numb below the waist in a split second.

I seriously could give a crap if the president is humping more women than a chipmunk, as long as he´s doing a good job as political and military leader of my country. Fuck, Americans and the personal lives of presidents...

Well, more specifically: The political comments (that paragraph) you had about Kerry are shaky at best. If we are discussing hours one has been at work then Bush scores about as well as someone on welfare. He has been milking his cows more often than that he has attended a meeting. Every now and then at a pressmeeting Condoleeza shoves her hand up Bushs ass and they start doing their ventriloquist act, but thats about as far as it goes.

I personally do not think Kerry is a good enough candidate to run against Bush. But he is the best the democrats have (besides Gore). So itll have to do. He shóuld be more firm on some issues, he should have more original ideas, and he shóuld inspire more. But I am sorry, his trackrecord as a senator does not tell me he is a flip flopper. It tells me he is complex, and thinks a bit further than 'The American Way' or total war.

The Americans were in Iraq already, youd be one cold motherfucker of a veteran to not give those troops the money they needed if hope for retreat were slim to none. That my friend is what a leader is all about, seeing beyond the black and white. Things is...Americans don't like complex, too difficult. They need their president to be like a can of Campbells soup, fast and easy. But with the president, as with the soup, you'd wish you had gone for the better stuff.

Btw 'Googling' for information is never a good idea if you?re shooting for the credible stuff..

Jav, that is why I didnt respond. I mean look at his post.

No offense to him, but that was completely moronic. (I lost IQ points just reading the damn thing.)

Politics are fine. I will debate politics anytime. But not trash politics. I will leave that to the tabloids. And the morons.

Ken

I love this site for all the stuff that one can learn.

So does this mean that Republicans are sexually deprived?

jay

Republicans...sexually deprived and retarded...come on let's all vote for the right people this year!