George Bush & "The Greatest Country in the World"

miniver_cheevy: i wanted to second all this thread's support for france's (and germany's) position about the war in iraq.

i too love that country and their independent minded, free-speaking, non-conformist people. i want to make sure that french citizens know that not all americans wish them ill will.

freedom fries? ha! that's the biggest joke i ever heard. the best french fries i ever ate were in france.

france has continually been a bastion of european support for autonomy in the middle east, including being one of the foremost supporters of the plight of the palestinians.

by practicing true diplocmacy (as well as being the best nation on earth in terms of humanitarian aid), france has been one of the most moderating forces in modern world history.

they have managed to temper european domination and the result has been a more balanced, careful world approach. countless votes in the u.n. security council would attest to this.

france is the spoke on which the wheel of western europe turns.

(at the same, i want to recognize that, after the united states, they are perhaps the second largest arms broker in the world.)

(there are many lot of misconceptions about france among americans. for example, don't forget that the french navy never capitulated during world war ii -- and they fought very hard -- with the help of the french african colonial troops -- to wrest their country from the grip of the nazis .)

vive la belle france! merci a dieu pour monsieur chirac! bon courage en suivant votre course! on vous aime!(long live beautiful france, thank god for mr. chirac! good luck in sticking to your course! we love you!)

@DMW:
Interesting you should make the comparison "Concentration camp? I thought it was a spa." Some of those Holocaust deniers are claiming that it was a spa. Apparently ovens are just steam baths.

Gypsies were also killed in the Holocaust, but the number's usually underestimated because many countries still don't regard gypsies as human.

@miniver_cheevy:
I think you'll like this

[flash=400,300]http://www.markfiore.com/animation/bluster.swf[/flash]

I myself prefer chips. Just as long as they're not in cayenne pepper. (Get it? Buffalo chips?)

7x6andchg: Gentlemen-

I, too, enjoy the postings on what is considered an "et cetera" topic. The only problem is that I have so many people to respond to:

@ Max:

Outside of the post-Vietnam era, the Americans used to be "wait-and-see" too - both WWI and WWII we were late arrivals. (1916 and 1941)

@ Mindseye:

Well said. I think the balance is off-kilter in our current administration, as you said.

@ DMW:

You are exactly right. The fact that we have the right to say that is why I think an amendment to ban flag burning is wrong...perhaps misguided to do so in some peoples' opinions, but still wonderfully legal....thanks to the First Amendment (and GWB is not my favorite person in the world, either...)

@ miniver_cheevy:

Allons enfants de la patrie! Le jour de gloire est arrive!
And I could be wrong - but isn't the french in french fries named for the way they are cut? That makes THAT whole thing so ridiculous. To me, the French are like the friend who says, "wait...hold on...are you sure you want to do this?..." That friend is often the most steadfast and reasonable one might have.

@ Finnmark -

You're right - it is a multi-faceted discussion.

I love America. I love her wide open spaces, her sense of individuality, the liberties we have....but...we also have limited social welfare programs, such as health care and unemployment. There is good and bad in every country and I think what tends to make one think that their country is the "greatest" is the fact that it is, in fact, THEIRS...which gets back to the patriotism argument posted by mindseye. I mean, truth be told, I live in the state I was born in - I tend to think Wisconsin is better than most of the other 49 states, too... ;) No offense intended to my stateside brethren.

In short - to quote, if I may, Depeche Mode, people are people. French people, British people, Iraqi people, etc., etc. Acceptance is key, on both sides.

I can not truly express how wonderful this "thread" turned out to be - a reasoned, intelligent discussion of this war - and on an Large Penis Support Group...who would have thought? :)

another long post - sorry guys :(

Paul/7x6&C

to me more than anything else including the flag, the statue of liberty is the symbol of america....and it is, of course, france's gift to the upstarts across the water who adopted the french ideals of liberty and justice.

to see the lady rising above the fog some cool autumn morning causes me to remember she encourages us to accept and make a place for diverse peoples and ideas. diverse ideals and ideas clash, and from this conflict the american psyche has emerged.

intellectually and emotionally (because we share the same underlying beliefs) we are as much a child of the french as the english. it was rosseau that articulated the "rights of man," a revolutionary concept in the days of the divine right of kings. that was one BIG step for mankind.

it was the french fleet that prevented the escape of the british army at yorktown and led to the american victory and to the end of the revolutionary war. so let's not bash those who pulled our nuts outta da fire.

i admit that i like the french people. to an american teen, they were kind, considerate, funny, stylish, and helpful. it was not uncommon for them to stop what they were doing (including closing the shop) to take us to a place off the beaten path and tell the story of what happened here...50 or 500 years before.

they are a courageous, brave people who were defeated on the battlefield in 1940 but continued to fight a partisan war and disrupt the german occupation. they endured brutal retaliation yet continued to fight for the glory of france.

while i largely agree with the anti-war stance of the french people, even if i did not, i would respect their right to express it and perhaps, review my own beliefs since friends sometimes are considering something i did not.

am i embarassed that a congressman is more concerned with deleting french from fries than working on social security reform or homeland defense or health care reform? you betcha!

jay

miniver_cheevy: :D merci jonb c'est tres rigolo! (thanks jonb that hilarious!)

i happened to see the documentary on the statute of liberty (by that famous documentary filmmaker, ken burns), which showed some the great difficulty in getting the statue built and set on it's ultimate pedestal.

did you know that the boat from france carrying the dismantled parts over to america came very close to sinking during a storm? whoa, that would have been TERRIBLE!

7x6andchg: Not to mention what would the State of New York have to put on their license plates?

:D

Finnmark: Hello again, everyone!

I've been out of touch with the thread for a few days, and am delighted to come back to it and see all the support for my 'favourite' country ... la belle France! And the good Americans on LSPG (Jay, Wisconsin Paul, Miniver Cheevy - to name but a few) feel like really supportive friends. What an interesting and sensitive discussion this has been ... amazing where you can get to on this site.

I've made a special note, Min-Cheevy, of "France is the spoke (sorry - hub?) on which the wheel of western Europe turns". Very true, I like it. I think it always has been.

It certainly isn't Britain!

French-bashing has gotten truly ridiculous. True story: I was in IHOP ... okay, not exactly an epicurean experience ... and ordered a double decker BLT with French fries. The waitress informed me, "We don't serve French fries here; would you like freedom fries?" I asked, "Are they julienned potatoes deep-fried in oil until they're golden brown?" She said, "Yes." I said, "You can call them what you want, but those are French fries. So, please bring me French fries." And she looked at me like I farted on her best dress. If I hear freedom fries, freedom toast, freedom twist, etc., much more, I may have to resort to speaking French more often to compensate. Je peux faire ça! And this being Nouvelle Orléans, there will be some others who can do the same!

You forgot "Pardon my freedom." LOL Please hope I'm wrong.

freedom bread · freedom dressing · freedom horn · freedom cuff· freedom doors · freedom kiss · freedom tickler... OMG: what are the inhabitants of Paris, TX, going to call their hometown? ???

7x6andchg: Well, DMW -

As for Paris, TX (and KY, too, I believe), we may not be at war with the French as we were with Germany in WWII, but there is a town here in Wisconsin that is pronounced "New BER-lin" solely because it USED to sound like the town in Germany..... and that's also why we call them "hot dogs" - the word was the primary replacement for frankfurter.

Anti-German sentiment during WWI was also the reason for substitutions like 'Salsbury steak' for 'hamburger' and 'liberty cabbage' for 'sauerkraut'. The 'liberty cabbage' example sounds too much like today's 'freedom fries'. English has a lot of French loan words in daily use. Hopefully the zealots are not going to try to expunge them from the language.
BTW ... Interesting historical note: before WWI, 'French toast' was called 'German toast' because it is originally from Alsace, where German was the language. It made its way to Paris where it was called pain perdu ('lost bread'). Because of anti-German sentiment, restaurants decided to stress its connexion with the French freedom fighters. That's why we call it French toast. And if someone tries to get me to say 'freedom' toast, he's going to get an earful from a fed-up Cuban with a 'tude!

out of this war have come a couple of scenes that make me proud to be a human and an american. out of the devastation and horror that is war, i was a witness (through tv) to:

the marine standing on a humvee rapping to a bunch of iraqui kids. he made them forget for a few minutes the reality of living in the midst of war.

the brother of lori piestewa (the first american woman soldier to die in combat) asking the media and america for a few days for the family to grieve in peace and calling upon the world and its leaders to pray and work for peace and bring the planet back into balance.

because of them, i know humanity lives.

jay

thatsme: Thought I would add some balance or at least another perspective to this topic.


1. As far as Bush, really I could delve pretty deep into this, but I will try not to. He is an idiot, IMO. However, he not very conservative at all, especially for a Republican. He was handpicked by the GOP in 2000 and rode the support to victory. In the the Republican debates, he was the least effective speaker ( Alan Keyes being the best). People are going after ( or supporting) Bush in the same way they did with Clinton; along party or ideological lines. Even though Clinton was not particularly "liberal" and Bush is not very "conservative." Just as Republicans passionately attacked Clinton, they now blindly support Bush even though he is pretty moderate.

2. As far as "liberal" labels, I consider myself a classical liberal ( libertarian). It would make the most sense to me if most of you were as well, but I do not get that impression. I think many of you might be half way. Basically I believe in individualism and complete personal and economic freedom. ( Of course, this is individual in nature and is not permission to harm others). I believe completely in privacy and property rights. The government is supposed to exist as a servant to the people for the sole purpose of protecting them. And if you want to have freedom, you need complete freedom. If you believe the government should not be in your bedroom, then they should not be in your property, commerce,etc. You cannot have it both ways. Unfortunately, modern "liberals" are not liberal at all. They believe in huge government, the nanny state, and extreme interference and regulation ( total disregard for privacy and property). This goes the same for Democrats and republicans. it is a 2 headed monster that keeps growing ( and you keep feeding it).. I also find it strange that so-called liberals tend to be more liberal socially,sexually,etc but they support politicians and governments that are more regulatory and collective ( do not believe in individual rights, because they do not believe that any individuals actually exist).

I could go on and on ( for example, associates of the "right" and Bush family have a history of fostering communism, hardly "conservatism")

3. As far as USA being the Greatest Country on the Earth. I think in spirit and intent, it is.

My basis for this thought is:

The USA was the first country that was based on freedom of and the individual; a country of opportunity and attainment ( not ascribed status).

I am not going to disparage Europe or any other parts of the world. In fact, I have many friends from former Soviet areas ( they are more "american" than most americans, I might add). However, it has always seemed that in most places of the world, people are neither free not have any spirit of freedom. They are born in a certain position and forced to live a certain way for their entire lives, for no reason, nothing they can control ( maybe because of who their father was or family was,etc).

In a truly free capitalist society ( What the US has always hoped to be, but never quite acheived; but at least it is close and has that spirit), each individual can live freely as he chooses and be anything he wants in life as long as he is willing to work for it.

To me it is simple as individualism vs. collectivism. you may disagree, as many Americans are collectivists and have an unhealthy lust for things I believe are wrong ( For example, one of the great things is not having Kings or Queens, yet many Americans obsess over creating their own "Royalty" in the form of The Kennedys or Bushes,etc).

BTW, I oppose the war and dont think highly of Bush. However this isnt a left vs. right or "liberal/conservative" thing. Most people have no idea of the actual meaning of those terms.

re: The Greatest Country in the World

i am glad that i was born in the u.s., but i have problems with this phrase. it is arrogant and insensitive. yeah, i think our leaders and people should be more sensitive to the national pride of the brits, french, germans, italians, slovenians, etc. while i have not traveled that much, i have never been in a country where i was told this is a hell hole. quite the contrary, i find that when i am abroad, i am in a country with a great and interesting past and one that is culturally important.

cetainly, in the last half of the 20th century, we garnered more than our share of nobel laureates and created an economic engine that much of the world envies. we have demonstrated our technological prowess in the development of weapons of war. our movie and television programs are watched worldwide; and in large part, they are responsible for american english becoming the language of the world. but can any american say that jerry springer is culturally important and is a worthy export?

i think we should be more humble and tolerant of other peoples for we have stood on the backs of past giants. the arabs taught us to count, add, subtract, multiply, and divide using arabic numerals. out of africa came the foundations of ragtime, the blues, jazz and rap. from italy and france art and music. from germany and austria, the great classical tradition in music.

i think the jury is still out on america being the greatest country in the world. moreover, i am not sure how to measure such a statement.

jay